2015 3.0 Ecodeisel a hazard

[issanni]

I have a '16 purchased new last August. Came with 100,000 mile powertrain warranty.

Interesting, every dealer I went to in Houston TX told me the '16s have a 5/60k powertrain warranty. A little further research shows the dealers were idiots, they dropped the gassers to 5/60 but not the diesel. <smh>

 

[GearHead]

That's almost two quarts of fuel in the crankcase. That doesn't sound right to me.

The other forum has many UOA's posted and all seem to be less than 2% so maybe 6-7 ounces of fuel in the oil.

Do you have a link to the article you are referring to?

Thanks

Sorry no. I am one of the anachronisms that is old enough to still like to read a hard copy print format. I have the magazine in question on the desk at the shop. I am sure that the publisher has a web presence but I am unaware of it.
I thought it was quite relevant in the discussion of engine failures as I have suspected fuel dilution as a culprit early on. And yes I have drained 13 or 14 qts. of fluid out of a 10qt. engine. Did not need a fuel analysis other than my nose.Yes many owners use oil testing with results at acceptable levels of fuel dilution. I never assume that one drivers oil status is a statement that all drivers will achieve the same oil status. I have seen fuel dilution level differ in the same engine between a father and a son driving. It is well known in the industry that the euro spec oil originally required, although a good product, may not have been sufficient for the broad spectrum of driving styles in the U.S. I debated purchasing a diesel powered vehicle initially due to the what I consider "optimum" usage cycles for diesel engines and whether or not my driving needs would meet these cycles. I also decided at purchase to change to a more "robust" or "forgiving" oil in the CJ4 category as soon as possible.
I agree with the original poster in his frustration with a Dealer response to his third engine failure in less than 10K miles. I do know that the Dealers input to FCA can affect the response from Corporate levels. It is completely unacceptable that a manufacturer would disavow a product so completely as he has experienced. I have customers who use these vehicles in commercial application with no warranty issues. It is baffling.

 

[John l]

Ok so like I said before I'm new to diesel. What I'm reading is you're getting fuel in the crankcase causing these catastrophic failures
My question is are you supposed to get fuel in there and if so what is the acceptable amount.
I've had my truck for three weeks. Checked the oil yesterday and it's very black already and the level is above max. The dealership I bought from supposedly changed it upon arrival to their shop. They could have overfilled I guess or is this the fuel getting in there

 

[MSP548]

Ok so like I said before I'm new to diesel. What I'm reading is you're getting fuel in the crankcase causing these catastrophic failures
My question is are you supposed to get fuel in there and if so what is the acceptable amount.
I've had my truck for three weeks. Checked the oil yesterday and it's very black already and the level is above max. The dealership I bought from supposedly changed it upon arrival to their shop. They could have overfilled I guess or is this the fuel getting in there

The vehicle is designed to dump diesel fuel into the crankcase as part of the regen process. (it is all related to the emissions rules and the onboard processes designed to meet those rules). I am no expert so I won't explain it to you any more than that. Amsoil has a good video that explains oil degradation based on diesel contamination from regens. Treat your self to that video for a proper education on the subject.

In a nutshell, these ecodiesels are failing at an alarming rate. The cause is known to FCA but they are not confessing to any negligence in design or function. This leaves owners with no option but to speculate as to the causation. One thing that "seems" to assist in reducing the failure rate is to purchase a tune through companies such as GDE. The tune shuts off the EGR which ends the pumping of soot filled exhaust through the engine. The catch 22 is that FCA could decline warranty if they found the tune. You simply have to gauge your own risk tolerance in order to make that decision.

If there is no court ordered buyback w/in the next 24 months; I will be trading mine in. I refuse to own this thing outside of warranty.

And part 2...

 

[Scottd]

Fuel dilution happens to all diesels...not just the ED. when you run your truck up to temp and the oil temp gets over 212 deg f the fuel is supposed to evaporate.

 

[TC Diesel]

The instant fuel in integrated in oil the damage is done it will evaporate at 250*+ but the damage is done the viscosity is already been effected ....Anything above 2% in 5K miles IMO is to much, MSP548 You I and a hand full of honorable men are the ONLYones Standing against FCA and the Crowd of blind guides...The instant My OA turn up dirty or Above 2% MyED will no longer be owned By Me, Let the fool that buys it and listens to these blind guides deal with the future failure...Its the only vehicle I would dump on the weary ...but I'm done with the warning calls ALL have come true...No tune will save a sinking ship and No tune will save the 3.0 if its a zero motor... Hero 3.0 live on Factory tunes for 300K miles + with some maintenance...Why spend $.

 

[Eco buba]

Any one have any idea. How long it will take the lawsuit against FCA till we get a settlement? With VW they had to by a lot of those cars back . Would FCA do the same?

 

[TC Diesel]

Generally the longer it takes in matters with DOJ the defendant loses ground. The More time that passes the More judicial precedent is set, this will favor the Plaintiff. IMO FCA has something running in the background to prolong this matter. Maybe New engine its all guessing. Ford Also delayed the F-150 Diesel Mid 18 Hmmm. Just hang in there and see what develops

 

[Eco buba]

Generally the longer it takes in matters with DOJ the defendant loses ground. The More time that passes the More judicial precedent is set, this will favor the Plaintiff. IMO FCA has something running in the background to prolong this matter. Maybe New engine its all guessing. Ford Also delayed the F-150 Diesel Mid 18 Hmmm. Just hang in there and see what develops

Thank you sir

 

[GearHead]

Ok so like I said before I'm new to diesel. What I'm reading is you're getting fuel in the crankcase causing these catastrophic failures
My question is are you supposed to get fuel in there and if so what is the acceptable amount.
I've had my truck for three weeks. Checked the oil yesterday and it's very black already and the level is above max. The dealership I bought from supposedly changed it upon arrival to their shop. They could have overfilled I guess or is this the fuel getting in there

OK, some amount of diesel fuel in the motor oil is unavoidable, however as indicated by the excellent AMSOIL videos posted by MSP548 the regen cycles tend to increase the amount of fuel dilution being experienced. No the fuel is not pumped through the crankcase it inadvertently ends up there. The ED injectors can fire 6 times per cycle. So 1. some fuel is allowable. How much? 4% or below has been the industry standard for years. By TC Diesel's standard 2% at 5K miles would equal 4% at 10K miles, so at industry standard. 2. The type of oil is pivotal in this respect as well as driving patterns. The oil originally placed in the ED, and some dealers are still installing, was a euro spec 5W-30 which was known to not do well with high levels of fuel dilution. But in FCA defense it was not totally anticipated. I presently am reading another article concerning diesel engine oil in the May 2017 issue of Engine Builder magazine, www.enginebuildermag.com, pre warning not all articles are online available to non members, in the 12th paragraph it references the FCA change from the 5W-30 to the 10W-40 or 15W-40 CJ-4 classification oils. Title of the article Regulations and Research. how PC-11 Became a CK-4/FA-4 Reality. Noted five years of testing and implemented in Dec. 2016. The CJ-4 category of oils has a higher soot/ash/fuel contamination carrying capability with a higher shear strength. With the caveat that the SN designation of motor oil is for automobile gas fuel.
Drive patterns also play a role in fuel dilution, as it also plays a role in regeneration cycles. A lot of short haul, in town type of driving will increase the need for regen cycles and therefore increase the potential for fuel dilution, as well as not allowing the engine temp and oil temp to stabilize long enough to allow the diesel fuel to evaporate from the oil. Conversely long haul drive cycles reduce the regen cycles and also allow for stabilized oil temps and evaporation times. During these cycles it is important to have a motor oil that can handle the contamination.
I do not know your or MSP548's driving patterns so I can not even begin to guess your oil level causation, however I can state that a reliable lab test of your oil for protective additive levels as well as fuel dilution is a good idea. Some recommend testing at half way point of planned oil change, some perform at oil change. Many of the posters on this board utilize these services and I would leave it to you to decide who best to use. I would also recommend using a Diesel Oil stabilizer additive, of which several are available and several are used by posters on this board.
As I stated in a previous post I debated a diesel engine purchase based upon my drive patterns and my knowledge of diesel and gas engines, I also debated CNG and Propane fueled engines. The technology is new and developing in the DPF and NOX catalyst on diesels but bear in mind that all new model Commercial diesels now have the DPF and NOX systems installed so this technology should be settling into a sustainable area shortly. The technology had been known for years but EPA advanced the timeline for implementation of the Tier 7 bin 5 standards by a couple of years at the last minute, giving a shortened testing cycle for the manufacturers.
I apologize for the long post. There is just too much information and emotion attached to this issue to have single syllable answers. And I am sure someone will call me out for misreading my post.

 

[John]

Sorry no. I am one of the anachronisms that is old enough to still like to read a hard copy print format. I have the magazine in question on the desk at the shop. I am sure that the publisher has a web presence but I am unaware of it.
I thought it was quite relevant in the discussion of engine failures as I have suspected fuel dilution as a culprit early on. And yes I have drained 13 or 14 qts. of fluid out of a 10qt. engine. Did not need a fuel analysis other than my nose.Yes many owners use oil testing with results at acceptable levels of fuel dilution. I never assume that one drivers oil status is a statement that all drivers will achieve the same oil status. I have seen fuel dilution level differ in the same engine between a father and a son driving. It is well known in the industry that the euro spec oil originally required, although a good product, may not have been sufficient for the broad spectrum of driving styles in the U.S. I debated purchasing a diesel powered vehicle initially due to the what I consider "optimum" usage cycles for diesel engines and whether or not my driving needs would meet these cycles. I also decided at purchase to change to a more "robust" or "forgiving" oil in the CJ4 category as soon as possible.
I agree with the original poster in his frustration with a Dealer response to his third engine failure in less than 10K miles. I do know that the Dealers input to FCA can affect the response from Corporate levels. It is completely unacceptable that a manufacturer would disavow a product so completely as he has experienced. I have customers who use these vehicles in commercial application with no warranty issues. It is baffling.

So if I'm reading this correctly you are saying you find 3-4 qts. of fuel in a 10 qt. crankcase?

If you are seeing anywhere near a 30% dilution I am going to say someone has access to the oil fill under the hood and is messing with you by pouring fuel into the crankcase

The only other way I can see this (still hard to believe) would be with a fuel injector dumping fuel. If this was the case I'm pretty sure a code would be thrown.

Your nose will not accurately analyze your oil. I don't care how old fashioned you are.

Another thought, If the fuel dilution is the culprit a 50-75% failure rate would be more likely since most of us used the original spec oil.

I am respectfully calling BS on your story.

 

[John]

By TC Diesel's standard 2% at 5K miles would equal 4% at 10K miles, so at industry standard.

Fuel dilution is not cumulative. The fuel will evaporate from the oil once operating temperature is reached.

 

[TC Diesel]

Your limited knowledge is showing its ugly head...Operating temps Heeeeheee How long does it take to get 10QTS of oil to Operating temps 225+? and CP3-4s when shaft seals fail you can pump Gallons of fuel in Crankcase in minutes.( If weep hole is plugged) happens all the time..

 

[Brady]

...and here we go again.

This is a one man show here; Jeff doesn't need you two bickering like school kids. TC, work on your delivery. There's no doubt you are informed and knowledgeable. But there's no reason to be pointing a middle finger in every dam post.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

 

[TC Diesel]

I here Ya Brady..But facts and truth's need to be ( or should be ) part of anyone's criteria......These Keystroke lobbyist that are politically correct are misleading the facts about the 3.0 is 1 year out of production , Serious short comings and legally under attack The 3.0 IMO has now joined the Ranks of Hero / Zero status. The 3208 Cat,4.3 5.7, 6.2,6.5 GM. 6.0 Ford , Maxforce, 53 Block Cummins, 8.2 Det...I have received 3 calls on Puked 3.0 that FCA has denied out of warranty engine failures, At present these 3 owners are awaiting the outcome of the criminal charges levied against FCA, before they proceed. Contrary to believes many people will not share info ( internet ) do to the scrutiny they would receive form NON believing, blind keystroker's..

 

[TC Diesel]

If its reckless criticism to that 3rd party on My part I WILL STAND CORRECTED, but its that 3rd party that is benefiting form such misleading info in the form of notoriety..... at the expense of truth's and facts.

 

[Brady]

Who in the heck is the 3rd party?

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[BoostN]

...and here we go again.

This is a one man show here; Jeff doesn't need you two bickering like school kids. TC, work on your delivery. There's no doubt you are informed and knowledgeable. But there's no reason to be pointing a middle finger in every dam post.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Thanks Brady..

I couldn't have said it better.

This thread has been cleaned up, I wasn't online at midnight last night to catch all of this..

 

[GearHead]

So if I'm reading this correctly you are saying you find 3-4 qts. of fuel in a 10 qt. crankcase?

If you are seeing anywhere near a 30% dilution I am going to say someone has access to the oil fill under the hood and is messing with you by pouring fuel into the crankcase

The only other way I can see this (still hard to believe) would be with a fuel injector dumping fuel. If this was the case I'm pretty sure a code would be thrown.

Your nose will not accurately analyze your oil. I don't care how old fashioned you are.

Another thought, If the fuel dilution is the culprit a 50-75% failure rate would be more likely since most of us used the original spec oil.

I am respectfully calling BS on your story.

OK John and all other readers. I stated that I have seen 12 qts out of a 10 qt. engine. I have actually seen 30qts in a 22 qt. engine as well. Yes a over-fueling injector can be the cause, a failed seal in the injector pump, worn piston and rings, and now regen cycles can be the cause. Yes we have seen injectors over-fuel and not throw a code, even brand new, we flow test all injectors now. We normally see this type of dilution when a vehicle is brought in with rod knock or flat cam or the ubiquitous hole in the side of the block.
Yes when you have that much diesel fuel, gasoline, methanol, whatever you are fueling your engine with dilution in the oil you can smell it, I don't need a $75.00 forensic oil sample test.
As I stated your drive cycles and engine loads are also a factor in the fuel dilution algorithm, some of the owners on this board also add oil stabilizer outside of the dealers and part of their personal oil change regime. As TC has alluded to how long does it take for the engine oil to reach sufficient temperature to affect the fuel dilution? Another factor is how long to affect vaporization? In personal experience it takes a Cummins Formula 290 (yes old school) 30 minutes for the oil to achieve water temperature and another 30 minutes to reach optimum to allow fuel/water/residual acids vaporization to occur in old non synthetic base oils. So yes I do contend that fuel dilution is a bigger factor than is being given. You can statistically expect a 1 to 3% failure rate to QC, such as out of specification bearings, torque, assembly procedures, etc.
The larger question is why is FCA treating their customers in such a callus manner?
So as most of us have begun to surmise TC has a lot of experience and knowledge, but not so much social communication skills, Sorry TC, so may I add I have owned my machine shop for over 30 years and have built everything from stock to high performance engines for motorcycles to automobiles and light trucks. I started by building my own AMA professional motorcycle engines some 40 years ago. I got tired of reworking my parts after I received them from the local machine shops so I bought out a gentleman retiring from the business. For the last 15 years we have emphasized our European engines in cooperation with the owner of my building. And I am sure someone will back me up when I say you can't make up some of the engine failures that I have seen.

 

[Chappy20]

I here Ya Brady..But facts and truth's need to be ( or should be ) part of anyone's criteria......These Keystroke lobbyist that are politically correct are misleading the facts about the 3.0 is 1 year out of production , Serious short comings and legally under attack The 3.0 IMO has now joined the Ranks of Hero / Zero status. The 3208 Cat,4.3 5.7, 6.2,6.5 GM. 6.0 Ford , Maxforce, 53 Block Cummins, 8.2 Det...I have received 3 calls on Puked 3.0 that FCA has denied out of warranty engine failures, At present these 3 owners are awaiting the outcome of the criminal charges levied against FCA, before they proceed. Contrary to believes many people will not share info ( internet ) do to the scrutiny they would receive form NON believing, blind keystroker's..

My 2015 eco flashed the ETC warning and left me on the side of the road 18 days ago. Still at the dealership. Telling me they can't find the problem. No loaner and no help from Chrysler customer service. 47000 miles. I can't believe this is really happening.