DEF Injector

[Adamdj89]

Hi All

I cant find much on Google about this so here goes......if my DEF injector was failing would I get an indication on the dash that it is doing so?
How can i check if my DEF injector is actually spraying fluid?

Thanks in advance the responses

 

[EcoDieselJolene]

This isn't based on my technical knowledge, as I have none, but I think any emissions related failure is likely to show up in the form of an alarm or dash light.
Also, if the DEF wasn't being injected into the exhaust system, I think you'd have dirty, darker, smelly exhaust. They use very little DEF, so that gauge is going to move very slowly.
Why do you think itay not be spraying?

 

[John Jensen]

Ecodiesels use little DEF. I believe it's because their frequent regen cycles keep the NOx levels down. DEF is only used when NOX reaches a certain level, then DEF is injected into the SCR (EGT4 sensor) to remove NO2/NOx. NOX levels trigger the DEF injection and also determine the quantity of DEF to be injected.

Jolene asks a key question, "Why do you think it may not be spraying?"

 

[Adamdj89]

Hi Jolene and John

Thank you so much for your explanations. I am new to all this only had my truck for a year and just now understanding how the DPF system operates. Long story short I live on an Island where the dealer knows absolutely nothing about what they are selling. It's sad. Been having a lot of issues with the DPF system and having to resort to other vehicles instead of driving my own truck. Gonna see about getting the system deleted

 

[Adamdj89]

Hi again John and Jolene
I did not answer your question on why I thought the injector was not spraying. Again long story, got the 100% DPF filter full see dealer warning... dealer tells me they did not see DEF fluid in the DPF filter...my gauge had slightly less than half..dealer told me tank was almost empty and needed fluid....I thought that may be injector is malfunctioning and not spraying...however I truly believe the dealer knows diddly squat and your explanations helps me understand

Thanks

 

[John Jensen]

Hi again John and Jolene
I did not answer your question on why I thought the injector was not spraying. Again long story, got the 100% DPF filter full see dealer warning... dealer tells me they did not see DEF fluid in the DPF filter...my gauge had slightly less than half..dealer told me tank was almost empty and needed fluid....I thought that may be injector is malfunctioning and not spraying...however I truly believe the dealer knows diddly squat and your explanations helps me understand
DPF filkter
Thanks

Yep, if your dealer said they did not see DEF in the DPF filter, they are idiots. DEF gets injected into the SRC, never into the DPF. Did they put more DEF into the almost empty tank and then do a forced regen when they had your truck? That's what they should have done if it threw a 100% see dealer message. Hoping it works out for you.

 

[DaveS]

Hi Jolene and John

Thank you so much for your explanations. I am new to all this only had my truck for a year and just now understanding how the DPF system operates. Long story short I live on an Island where the dealer knows absolutely nothing about what they are selling. It's sad. Been having a lot of issues with the DPF system and having to resort to other vehicles instead of driving my own truck. Gonna see about getting the system deleted

Adamdj89,
Here comes a lot of (hopefully understandable) info:
Our trucks use 4 parts to clean up exhaust.
1. Oxidizing catalytic converter. Similar to original gas car catalytic converters, main job convert partially burn hydrocarbon to CO2. It's first in the line of units on our exhaust system.
2. Exhaust gas recirculation (EGR)- raw exhaust (little to no oxygen) is shot into intake system to keep combustion at lower temp. Lower temp burn gives lower NOx in exhaust. This is the main way RAM keeps NOx down. Unfortunately it also notably increases soot production if used heavily.
3. Diesel particulate filter (DPF): traps 99% of particulates made during burning diesel fuel in motor. No black smoke b/c black particulates are trapped. When filter gets full, truck clears/regenerates the filter by getting it VERY HOT (1200 F) to burn all trapped soot particles to CO2. Truck sprays diesel fuel just before the DPF to get temp up and further down the system shoots more Diesel Emission Fluid (DEF) into the Selective Catalytic Reduction unit (SCR) that is behind the DPF to keep NOx to a minimum while its cleaning out the DPF.
4. Selective Catalytic Reduction unit, with Def sprayer (and sensors ....) in it. To clean up the last bits of NOx not controlled by keeping combustion temps down (1, above), diesel emission fluid (DEF) is injected into the SCR to convert NOx to nitrogen and oxygen and carbon dioxide (from DEF).

DPF plugging up a lot? Bet your truck does lots of short trips (Island = tip off). Diesel motors make more soot (particulates) when not at full operating temp, esp b/c RAM uses EGR almost exclusively to control NOx (makes more soot while keeping NOx down). Short trips fill the DPF FAST. It takes AT LEAST 10 min of driving WITHOUT STOPPING to clear (regenerate) the DPF and get all the soot out. Stop and go driving greatly slow the regen process (25 min?). If you don't get the truck out and run it long when you get the first warning, it's easy to end up at 100% full/Dealer Service warning. B/c the stock set up of the RAM doesn't tell you when its trying to do a routine regeneration (starts @ 65% full), you don't know to get it a 10-15 min of constant run then.

Bottom line: modern diesel trucks with particulate and NOx control systems, are poor main drives if you do a lot of short trip or stop and go driving. They need to run and get fully hot to do well.

Approaches:
1. Run it long / hot with some frequency. Lets DPF regen. If you get the 85% full warning, drop everything and run it for 20 minutes min on highway so it fully regens/empties DPF.
2. Common one is delete / defeat EGR. Basically illegal most places though. Not cheap to do WELL. Does eliminate (if take all emissions equipment off) problem. Requires a new engine controller tune. Does let all the soot out to the air. Does have a stinky exhaust (nasty acids). If you have any required emissions equipment inspections, truck will fail them (missing equipment / emitting high).
3. Emissions compliant / aftermarket tune. The good ones will reduce soot forming rate so regen one-third as often and noticeably improves drivability. You want to have a tune that posts a message EVERY TIME truck is regen-ing the DPF so that you drop everything and get it done (no dealer trips!). Get clean exhaust, better drivability, usually improved fuel efficiency. Not cheap either, but works as long as you keep DPF regens done when message posts on dash.
4. Get a different main drive. May be the best choice if your lifestyle is primarily short trips. Even deleted trucks can start to run poorly if not run long at least occasionally.

Hope that helps. Mine has a compliant tune. Works well, runs well. But even that is not going to be enough. B/C I live in the great north and my lifestyle is changing to not doing as much longer drives, I'll be switching to a gas truck soon.

Good luck!

 

[EcoDieselJolene]

Adamdj89,
Here comes a lot of (hopefully understandable) info:
Our trucks use 4 parts to clean up exhaust.
1. Oxidizing catalytic converter. Similar to original gas car catalytic converters, main job convert partially burn hydrocarbon to CO2. It's first in the line of units on our exhaust system.
2. Exhaust gas recirculation (EGR)- raw exhaust (little to no oxygen) is shot into intake system to keep combustion at lower temp. Lower temp burn gives lower NOx in exhaust. This is the main way RAM keeps NOx down. Unfortunately it also notably increases soot production if used heavily.
3. Diesel particulate filter (DPF): traps 99% of particulates made during burning diesel fuel in motor. No black smoke b/c black particulates are trapped. When filter gets full, truck clears/regenerates the filter by getting it VERY HOT (1200 F) to burn all trapped soot particles to CO2. Truck sprays diesel fuel just before the DPF to get temp up and further down the system shoots more Diesel Emission Fluid (DEF) into the Selective Catalytic Reduction unit (SCR) that is behind the DPF to keep NOx to a minimum while its cleaning out the DPF.
4. Selective Catalytic Reduction unit, with Def sprayer (and sensors ....) in it. To clean up the last bits of NOx not controlled by keeping combustion temps down (1, above), diesel emission fluid (DEF) is injected into the SCR to convert NOx to nitrogen and oxygen and carbon dioxide (from DEF).

DPF plugging up a lot? Bet your truck does lots of short trips (Island = tip off). Diesel motors make more soot (particulates) when not at full operating temp, esp b/c RAM uses EGR almost exclusively to control NOx (makes more soot while keeping NOx down). Short trips fill the DPF FAST. It takes AT LEAST 10 min of driving WITHOUT STOPPING to clear (regenerate) the DPF and get all the soot out. Stop and go driving greatly slow the regen process (25 min?). If you don't get the truck out and run it long when you get the first warning, it's easy to end up at 100% full/Dealer Service warning. B/c the stock set up of the RAM doesn't tell you when its trying to do a routine regeneration (starts @ 65% full), you don't know to get it a 10-15 min of constant run then.

Bottom line: modern diesel trucks with particulate and NOx control systems, are poor main drives if you do a lot of short trip or stop and go driving. They need to run and get fully hot to do well.

Approaches:
1. Run it long / hot with some frequency. Lets DPF regen. If you get the 85% full warning, drop everything and run it for 20 minutes min on highway so it fully regens/empties DPF.
2. Common one is delete / defeat EGR. Basically illegal most places though. Not cheap to do WELL. Does eliminate (if take all emissions equipment off) problem. Requires a new engine controller tune. Does let all the soot out to the air. Does have a stinky exhaust (nasty acids). If you have any required emissions equipment inspections, truck will fail them (missing equipment / emitting high).
3. Emissions compliant / aftermarket tune. The good ones will reduce soot forming rate so regen one-third as often and noticeably improves drivability. You want to have a tune that posts a message EVERY TIME truck is regen-ing the DPF so that you drop everything and get it done (no dealer trips!). Get clean exhaust, better drivability, usually improved fuel efficiency. Not cheap either, but works as long as you keep DPF regens done when message posts on dash.
4. Get a different main drive. May be the best choice if your lifestyle is primarily short trips. Even deleted trucks can start to run poorly if not run long at least occasionally.

Hope that helps. Mine has a compliant tune. Works well, runs well. But even that is not going to be enough. B/C I live in the great north and my lifestyle is changing to not doing as much longer drives, I'll be switching to a gas truck soon.

Good luck!

Thanks, DaveS,
You just took me to school. Thanks for the great information. Although I'm starting to feel like I'm in over my head, as I'm brand new to these things.

 

[John Jensen]

My 2016 Eco is my daily driver of "a lot of short trip or stop and go driving" and I have never seen the 100% full message, nor have I ever had an exhaust sytem problem. I agree that my use is the worst use for any diesel vehicle. So I compensate.

I monitor exhaust temps, DPF soot level and regen activity. If I'm on a short hop and I see a regen about to start or has started, I keep driving until the regen completes. I rarely stop and shop if a regen is in progress. I can also issue a command causing the truck to regen (when I next start it, and it reaches the required temps).

My point is, while short hop driving is a terrible way to treat a diesel, it can be done with no consequences.

 

[John Jensen]

Here's another version of what DaveS sent you.

 

[EcoDieselJolene]

My 2016 Eco is my daily driver of "a lot of short trip or stop and go driving" and I have never seen the 100% full message, nor have I ever had an exhaust sytem problem. I agree that my use is the worst use for any diesel vehicle. So I compensate.

I monitor exhaust temps, DPF soot level and regen activity. If I'm on a short hop and I see a regen about to start or has started, I keep driving until the regen completes. I rarely stop and shop if a regen is in progress. I can also issue a command causing the truck to regen (when I next start it, and it reaches the required temps).

My point is, while short hop driving is a terrible way to treat a diesel, it can be done with no consequences.

Good info. But how do you monitor that stuff?

And sorry Adam, I'm not trying to hijack your thread!

 

[John Jensen]

Edge Insight CTS2 or CTS3. The newer CTS3 will monitor the same , but it will not start a regen. There are other monitors and phone apps as well.

 

[Adamdj89]

Adamdj89,
Here comes a lot of (hopefully understandable) info:
Our trucks use 4 parts to clean up exhaust.
1. Oxidizing catalytic converter. Similar to original gas car catalytic converters, main job convert partially burn hydrocarbon to CO2. It's first in the line of units on our exhaust system.
2. Exhaust gas recirculation (EGR)- raw exhaust (little to no oxygen) is shot into intake system to keep combustion at lower temp. Lower temp burn gives lower NOx in exhaust. This is the main way RAM keeps NOx down. Unfortunately it also notably increases soot production if used heavily.
3. Diesel particulate filter (DPF): traps 99% of particulates made during burning diesel fuel in motor. No black smoke b/c black particulates are trapped. When filter gets full, truck clears/regenerates the filter by getting it VERY HOT (1200 F) to burn all trapped soot particles to CO2. Truck sprays diesel fuel just before the DPF to get temp up and further down the system shoots more Diesel Emission Fluid (DEF) into the Selective Catalytic Reduction unit (SCR) that is behind the DPF to keep NOx to a minimum while its cleaning out the DPF.
4. Selective Catalytic Reduction unit, with Def sprayer (and sensors ....) in it. To clean up the last bits of NOx not controlled by keeping combustion temps down (1, above), diesel emission fluid (DEF) is injected into the SCR to convert NOx to nitrogen and oxygen and carbon dioxide (from DEF).

DPF plugging up a lot? Bet your truck does lots of short trips (Island = tip off). Diesel motors make more soot (particulates) when not at full operating temp, esp b/c RAM uses EGR almost exclusively to control NOx (makes more soot while keeping NOx down). Short trips fill the DPF FAST. It takes AT LEAST 10 min of driving WITHOUT STOPPING to clear (regenerate) the DPF and get all the soot out. Stop and go driving greatly slow the regen process (25 min?). If you don't get the truck out and run it long when you get the first warning, it's easy to end up at 100% full/Dealer Service warning. B/c the stock set up of the RAM doesn't tell you when its trying to do a routine regeneration (starts @ 65% full), you don't know to get it a 10-15 min of constant run then.

Bottom line: modern diesel trucks with particulate and NOx control systems, are poor main drives if you do a lot of short trip or stop and go driving. They need to run and get fully hot to do well.

Approaches:
1. Run it long / hot with some frequency. Lets DPF regen. If you get the 85% full warning, drop everything and run it for 20 minutes min on highway so it fully regens/empties DPF.
2. Common one is delete / defeat EGR. Basically illegal most places though. Not cheap to do WELL. Does eliminate (if take all emissions equipment off) problem. Requires a new engine controller tune. Does let all the soot out to the air. Does have a stinky exhaust (nasty acids). If you have any required emissions equipment inspections, truck will fail them (missing equipment / emitting high).
3. Emissions compliant / aftermarket tune. The good ones will reduce soot forming rate so regen one-third as often and noticeably improves drivability. You want to have a tune that posts a message EVERY TIME truck is regen-ing the DPF so that you drop everything and get it done (no dealer trips!). Get clean exhaust, better drivability, usually improved fuel efficiency. Not cheap either, but works as long as you keep DPF regens done when message posts on dash.
4. Get a different main drive. May be the best choice if your lifestyle is primarily short trips. Even deleted trucks can start to run poorly if not run long at least occasionally.

Hope that helps. Mine has a compliant tune. Works well, runs well. But even that is not going to be enough. B/C I live in the great north and my lifestyle is changing to not doing as much longer drives, I'll be switching to a gas truck soon.

Good luck!

DaveS thanks so much whole lot of useful information. Yea working 5 mins from where you live may not be the most ideal for my truck. A Tech here told me to take it for a long drive every few weeks, which can be done. I wish it was easy to get parts here bc I would definitely go for the aftermarket tune. Purchased a delete kit with the truck so might go that route.. in my case my drives were so short that the 85% dpf full warning did not come up on dash. I figured it was a bit weird i hadn't seen a regen message in months then one day after work...start the truck and 100% message comes up..drove 8 miles before I got to dealer....Dealer told me 3 sensors had gone bad..in process of getting that sorted now. Thanks again for the advice

 

[Adamdj89]

Edge Insight CTS2 or CTS3. The newer CTS3 will monitor the same , but it will not start a regen. There are other monitors and phone apps as well.

John Jenson thanks for that I will have to check those out

 

[Adamdj89]

Good info. But how do you monitor that stuff?

And sorry Adam, I'm not trying to hijack your thread!

Jolene it's ok. I am in search of the same info as you..lol

 

[EcoDieselJolene]

Jolene it's ok. I am in search of the same info as you..lol

This forum and the folks on it are a valuable resource for Diesel-noobs like me!

 

[Adamdj89]

This forum and the folks on it are a valuable resource for Diesel-noobs like me!

I am right there with you....a noob as well...learnt so much in the past few days

 

[TC Diesel]

Unfortunately 89 you have 2018, it may have the quality sensor, so that sensor will pick up and trigger code when it drops below 24% Urea, 2014-17 only have common sensor so NO urea sensor, on 2014-17 you can run down to 10% and if you drop below 10% you will get CEL on rational code NONE effect driving, and you won't see the message "Service DEF" if CEL appears just add more DEF, DEF 33/67% is corrosive and abrasive and it will crystallize at DEF injector nozzle possibly leaving you to see the count down or worst.

Also Buy ALFA OBD2 and place your 3.0VM into stationary de-soot just prior to lube service... or 2-4 Times Yearly to lessen the events of the 100% self-destruct message to see dealer $$$$

I ran My 2015 at 10-12% for 4.25 Years (40K Miles ) 2 Gallon distilled water to 1 Gallon DEF error free. This will likely add to DEF injector/Pump Life. I had customer call Me from Hawaii, he had No choice but to let the dealer replace his DEF pump/injector (Tank) at a cost of $3,200.00, He call and told before he left the States, he wishes he had followed My Recommendation to sell the 2014, its been problem free up to this point, put with all the likeliness of plenum and other problems with 3.0VM he will be trading ASAP.

 

[John Jensen]

Unfortunately 89 you have 2018, it may have the quality sensor, so that sensor will pick up and trigger code when it drops below 24% Urea, 2014-17 only have common sensor so NO urea sensor, on 2014-17 you can run down to 10% and if you drop below 10% you will get CEL on rational code NONE effect driving, and you won't see the message "Service DEF" if CEL appears just add more DEF, DEF 33/67% is corrosive and abrasive and it will crystallize at DEF injector nozzle possibly leaving you to see the count down or worst.

TC, My 2016 must have a quality sensor, as it alerts at 22 or 24%. Like you say, 2.5 gals DEF & 1 Gal distilled, my monitor shows 26% (and no alert).

I said alerts at 22 or 24% because in previous posts you have said 22%.

 

[TC Diesel]

John it's all over the gauge some 22 other 24%. John you mean to tell Me Your Tuner did not set the DEF at NO MIL/CEL? what did you buy? My 2015 3.0 did not or does My 2016 6.7 Cummins, And some 2017s 6.7 and 3.0VMs have reported the same. It's odd your 2016 trigger the message it's the 1st Eco 2016 that I have heard of.