Does your lift pump make a noise?

[SeanPwnery]

My truck went in back in December, some of you may have seen that thread. I took it in because I no longer heard the electric pump or what I thought was the electric pump in the back make what I thought was typical electric pump noises. I thought I had a fuel delivery issue. It'd crank like a runaway starter until I deliberately keyed it to the "off" position. The explanation for that behavior was "these aren't typical ignition switches, its more like a rotating momentary switch that breaks signal when it fires up, or you cancel the command keying down to the 'off' position." Okay, I could buy that one.

$5400 dollars and two months later they have replaced :
* Injector pump at the engine
* Lift pump in the tank
* Fuel filter housing/heater and filter
* TIPM which they're calling the PDC now?
* ...and the battery - which I told them was weak before they even started.

I picked it up a week or so ago, TOWED it home because guess what? Still no electric pump noises. The service writer and the guy who worked on the truck both said something to the effect of "These pumps don't make typical fuel pump sounds unless they're about to die - these things are insanely quiet, but very finicky drivetrains." I had to get it away from those people because their original estimate was just short of $15k.

So... are they full of it? Do I need to get into the ear of FCA since I'm now out $5400 for the repairs they did do, $3500 for a third party warranty company that denied my claim, and oh yeah... the entire cost the truck I just made the 4th payment on? Does your pump make typical priming sounds before you start up?

 

[jdn112011]

My truck went in back in December, some of you may have seen that thread. I took it in because I no longer heard the electric pump or what I thought was the electric pump in the back make what I thought was typical electric pump noises. I thought I had a fuel delivery issue. It'd crank like a runaway starter until I deliberately keyed it to the "off" position. The explanation for that behavior was "these aren't typical ignition switches, its more like a rotating momentary switch that breaks signal when it fires up, or you cancel the command keying down to the 'off' position." Okay, I could buy that one.

$5400 dollars and two months later they have replaced :
* Injector pump at the engine
* Lift pump in the tank
* Fuel filter housing/heater and filter
* TIPM which they're calling the PDC now?
* ...and the battery - which I told them was weak before they even started.

I picked it up a week or so ago, TOWED it home because guess what? Still no electric pump noises. The service writer and the guy who worked on the truck both said something to the effect of "These pumps don't make typical fuel pump sounds unless they're about to die - these things are insanely quiet, but very finicky drivetrains." I had to get it away from those people because their original estimate was just short of $15k.

So... are they full of it? Do I need to get into the ear of FCA since I'm now out $5400 for the repairs they did do, $3500 for a third party warranty company that denied my claim, and oh yeah... the entire cost the truck I just made the 4th payment on? Does your pump make typical priming sounds before you start up?

You have to really know the tone you're listening for to hear it. Good way to test lift pump is to purge water from the fuel filter. Per the instructions you open the drain valve on cartridge housing then cycle ignition where it creates pressure and pushes out any water and some fuel from the drain.

My understanding here is that your Truck operates but you are just refusing to start it and drive it because you don't think you are hearing the lift pump?

 

[SeanPwnery]

You have to really know the tone you're listening for to hear it. Good way to test lift pump is to purge water from the fuel filter. Per the instructions you open the drain valve on cartridge housing then cycle ignition where it creates pressure and pushes out any water and some fuel from the drain.

My understanding here is that your Truck operates but you are just refusing to start it and drive it because you don't think you are hearing the lift pump?

I'll be cracking open the the drain and the line heading towards the HP Fuel pump, and anywhere else down the circuit systematically to ensure flow. They were adamant that I have a clog somewhere. I was adamant that the day it died, I drove it to work perfectly fine at highway speeds with no issue, backed into my parking space (low speed/idle) with no issue, and keyed off with no issue. I heard a sound similar to an electric fuel pump priming noise you'd commonly hear on gas-powered cars/trucks/etc when the key was in ACC before rolling over to start. When I key off, I get that same noise for about 15-20 seconds after I spin they key to "OFF" as well. When it made these sounds, the truck started and ran fine every day. The day I drove to work, I had the sound in the morning, the sound when I keyed off at my shop - but no sound 8 hours later when it was time to head home.

With no sound, I'd spin the key to ACC to silence, I'd try to spin it to "Start" after the glow plug indicator turned off, and the starter would start spinning away. I could let go of the key so it would rebound back to "Run" but the starter would keep spinning away as if it didn't want to quit until it fired up. It would only stop if I keyed it back to "OFF" That's where I was the day it went to the dealer back in December, and that's where I'm at now with it in my driveway.

 

[1shadowsabre]

maybe I am off base but I am not sure how your starter sticking would be related to your lift pump?

 

[jdn112011]

maybe I am off base but I am not sure how your starter sticking would be related to your lift pump?

I know first hand with my push to start that there's "cycle times" so to speak. From my tone wheel failure days it'll crank for way longer than you'd want it to. Also probably what's going on here

 

[SeanPwnery]

I know first hand with my push to start that there's "cycle times" so to speak. From my tone wheel failure days it'll crank for way longer than you'd want it to. Also probably what's going on here

Doesn't that typically throw you a crank position sensor code?

 

[jdn112011]

Doesn't that typically throw you a crank position sensor code?

How many miles on your Truck? 95-115 is the general failure point. Dealer here I want to say pulls the starter and sneaks an endoscope in to view the tone wheel

 

[SeanPwnery]

How many miles on your Truck? 95-115 is the general failure point. Dealer here I want to say pulls the starter and sneaks an endoscope in to view the tone wheel

107k - right about where the failure interval is.
When I brought it in there, I requested that they run my VIN against the recall database, and do a history on what's been done on this truck since I recently purchased it. According to them all recall work was done aside from the upcoming HP Fuel pump one which apparently has a backorder on parts (strangely enough, they charged me for one in the last repair).

As for the ECU codes, they said that nothing was pulled aside from fuel pressure codes, something to do with the filter housing/heater system. When they took mine apart, they found the filter had come apart and contaminated the system which is why they went scorched earth and replaced the pumps, the housing/heater and the filter. They wanted to change out all the lines, the fuel rails, and the injectors too which would have added 10k on top of my already 5k bill. We went back and forth for a while on how it ran the day it died, and how it never let on of a single issue, just no start - so they went piece-meal at my request for the things they found obviously contaminated. I think their exact words was "the HP Fuel pump quality screen had rust and bits of metal from the filter/housing coming upstream."

I did have the "electronic throttle" lightning bolt come up twice before where it went into limp mode (or what I thought was extremely reduced power mode) - it drove, but it accelerated pretty slowly. First time it happened, I keyed off at my destination, started it up about half an hour later and the light was off and everything acted as normal. The second time it happened, the same result and thought "Well, that's a bit odd."

 

[TC Diesel]

SeanPwnery, The dealership has no idea what their doing... You have been totally rip-off. it takes 5 minutes to check the in-tank lift pump.
It takes and expert to correctly diagnose problems like this, in the end it will be a simple fix for someone that knows WTH they are doing...

 

[autoX]

The tone ring which gives RPM > to meter fuel injectors. The failure of that ring results in a small gap in the magnetic ladder. So there is a signal but missing pulses every rotation. IDK if that throws a code or not. Causes crank but no start. Causes the fuel injectors to stay off/inactive. A few youtube videos on it.

When they replaced my engine they had a good look at my ring before assembly.

 

[autoX]

Yes lift pump buzzes with ignition on I can hear it when standing outside of driver's door.

 

[SeanPwnery]

Yes lift pump buzzes with ignition on I can hear it when standing outside of driver's door.

You know, that's what I thought too. My original one did, my new one doesn't.

This is after they changed the PDC too which if I'm not mistaken includes the integrated fuel pump relay. I wrote FCA yesterday and informed them of the practices of said dealership and what I've doled out so far, and the lack of confidence I have in taking it anywhere until I know they will be involved first.

 

[SeanPwnery]

So, I've been reading around here and several other forums, and in all honesty it really sounds like I may have a delaminated tone ring. That is going to *seriously* piss me off because the dealer carpet bombed a repair that had nothing to do with anything I experienced. From what I understand, the recall software band-aid they implemented was to allow the truck not to stall while running and rely on a camshaft position sensor pulse until you keyed off for that trip. Once you do that however, it will not start again because it still looks for a tone ring pulse. What's even more shocking to me is that they know this is a garbage design, and yet they have no improved version of this or a manufacturer's relocation kit - something other than a glued magnetic strip that will most certainly fail again in a few years.

 

[TC Diesel]

SeanPwnery... I cannot confirm the Tone Ring count down... What I do Know is Most powerplant makers use both the Cam and Crank sensors to operate........ and will trigger the CEL to replace the faulty one, it's just 1 of many short comings this engine has.

 

[autoX]

The magnetic strip busts off in a short section eg 1/2" of total . So it still works but produces a gapped waveform that the PCM or ECU can't deal with.= no injector pulse, no start

Now normally I'd say look at the tach needle but in this case it's very subtle to pick that up. Just checked - tach signal looks like it is soft, doesn't bounce at all just goes to 1K rpm after start.

I did this for Vdub's of yore, which use a mag/electronic crank sensor to start. My trick was to pour ice water over the pickup and boom it would fire. So my kids buddies were over in a beater golf, hot summer day and no start. I got in, super weak tach needle just barely moving. Got some of that ice bath, poured it over. "Try it now"

 

[SeanPwnery]

Two small updates :

1. I submitted my information to RamCare - trying to detail as much as possible to them about 5 days ago. Tuesday morning I received two replies stating that they opened up a claim case and are investigating the dealership I took my truck to. I basically told them I just want this rig running and if I was wrongly charged for parts or services that weren't related to my initial issue, to possibly do something about it - their response was "That's exactly what we're aiming to do." Kind-of cool, but I'm not holding my breath on this one.

2. I've been conferring with my neighbor, who I've described to you all as a heavy equipment and diesel mechanic for more than 30 years. For a few days I hadn't heard from him, but a couple days ago I brought up the tone ring and crank position sensor theory - he felt pretty certain my issue is likely that, and had already put in the order for parts and is just waiting for them to arrive. He was aware the transmission has to scoot back a foot or so to get to it, and must have done his homework about how to do it. This is a "hurry up and wait" scenario.

The fifth payment is due in a week or so ... that'll be 3 months I haven't driven it - 3 months of having to lean on the car I wanted to put away for a while and slowly work on its growing list of "to-do's."

 

[TC Diesel]

SeanPwnery, Hear me out on this. Your problem now is well known. and look 3 months? ..These time frames are going to get longer and More $$$$ for the Ram VM 3.0.... repairs

 

[autoX]

Get a scope or graph of the tone ring signal first. IDK what scanner can do that... Snap-on, or that Alfa tool? For example I can plot any signal, sensor etc with my iPhone on Range Rovers with my ODB wireless "GAP" tool. Same for VW-dub Audi I have Ross-Tech interface.

I might get the Alfa setup because I have 4 FCA's in the fleet right now.
& running blind!

 

[Marc-11]

Hey, what ended up happening here? I'm in the same position with the exact same fault (no code, no start, eternal cranking until I shut it off) although I'm not sure I have a bad ring but maybe a bad sensor. I spent a week learning how to use a scope and here is my waveforms. Cam up top, crank on the bottom. These are pull down sensors but my crank never "stays" low for enough time to create a square wave. I pulled the starter and had a look at the ring but there is a section you cannot see because the weight comes round on the rotation and the camera (well mine) can't stay in lien to see it. Super curious about what teh outcome was here! 130k on my 2015.

 

[EcoRama]

I had a similar issue with my truck just cranking but no start. The first time it didn't start, I jiggled a couple relays and it started. Everything was normal for a week and then while leaving my driveway it shut off. Once again I wiggled relays and wires and started again. Operated normal for about a week and then died while driving through neighborhood. Would crank but no start regardless of any wiggling. So being that it was Friday night, had it towed to my work lot. Spent a few hours over the weekend checking all connections under cab and cleaning the TIPM connectors, replaced a few relays and 9:00pm Sunday night, it started four separate times. So even though I was hesitant, I chose to drive it home and made it all of 1/2 mile before it died and wouldn't start. Had it towed to a independent diesel repair shop and their diagnostic solution was it being a bad in-tank fuel pump. So apparently it must have shorted itself on/off at random times before finally giving up. Of course, as of this moment, I haven't got it back so wee shall see.