EGR and SFT/GDE

[Pekozip93]

Hello
I am new to the forum, been reading here for some time. Lots of excellent information here.
Thank you all for your collective contribution.

2018 RAM SLT ED
21000KM
Canada

Question on EGR with either SFT or GDE tune.
-When you place an order to purchase there is the “option” of turning EGR off, I presume in selecting YES I do not have to physically remove and cap the EGR or is this only to be selected (yes) if you have done an actual/physical EGR delete?
From some reading it appears as though a stage1 or GDE equivalent reduces or eliminates the EGR process via software only w/o getting under the hood so to speak..? (Other than install of GDE ECM)
-Would removing the EGR not cause the DPF to fill up quicker, and possibly require more regens?

Ive read up on this a number of times but am not quite clear...
Thanks !

 

[carlhenry]

Welcome to the group any program turns off the egr or u can remove it the off road race u remove the dpf and the rest of exhaust gde is the best

 

[cds13ca]

Hello
I am new to the forum, been reading here for some time. Lots of excellent information here.
Thank you all for your collective contribution.

2018 RAM SLT ED
21000KM
Canada

Question on EGR with either SFT or GDE tune.
-When you place an order to purchase there is the “option” of turning EGR off, I presume in selecting YES I do not have to physically remove and cap the EGR or is this only to be selected (yes) if you have done an actual/physical EGR delete?
From some reading it appears as though a stage1 or GDE equivalent reduces or eliminates the EGR process via software only w/o getting under the hood so to speak..? (Other than install of GDE ECM)
-Would removing the EGR not cause the DPF to fill up quicker, and possibly require more regens?

Ive read up on this a number of times but am not quite clear...
Thanks !

Hi Welcome to the group.

Absolutely NOT. GDE in fact reduces regens significantly. I'm also in Canada, prior with stock I was getting a regen every 2-3 days (approx
150-200 km), now with GDE, I get regens every 1100-1200 km! I've been logging it and so far, I got GDE back in May, I've had 3 regens. Prior, I was regenning like crazy!!!

If you want your truck to last longer, go GDE, it shuts off egr, keeps your diffuser cleaner, keeps the MAP cleaner, keeps your oil cleaner, reduces regens, reduces lag. Worth it.

 

[Pekozip93]

Carl and CDS thanks for your input.
Much appreciated
Still weighing the SFT/GDE benefits...the ease afforded by the OBDll port is Value to me.
Prefer not to get busy under the hood.
That said, I like how GDE alters the behaviour of the front vent/rad louvers for warmup and other driving conditions.
Perhaps this is another thread topic..

 

[cds13ca]

Look into the regens of SFT esp with city driving before you decide. Is the regen freq the same or better than stock, otherwise is it worth it? REGENS create a whole other set of issues like fuel dilution, dpf wear and tear, excess fuel usage and then you have to drive around endlessly to complete regen's

 

[Pekozip93]

thanks again, and yes minimizing those emission system issues is key. Frequent REGENS and associated issues are frightening!
Once I decide which way to go ill report back with the experience
Thoughts always appreciated

 

[John Jensen]

Question on EGR with either SFT or GDE tune.
-When you place an order to purchase there is the “option” of turning EGR off, I presume in selecting YES I do not have to physically remove and cap the EGR or is this only to be selected (yes) if you have done an actual/physical EGR delete?

Pekozip93

Both SFT & GDE turn off the EGR. You do not have to do any deleting of the emission system.

My thoughts regards the above Regen comments:
I question that "regens create a whole other set of issues". Think about it, if they did there would be huge problems for all owners of the 8+million (USA-2016) non-commercial diesel vehicles in operation. Yes, Regens use a shot of fuel but not enough that you'll notice in your overall mpg. And you do not have to "drive around endlessly to complete regen's". Driving around to complete is a choice that a few elect to do. The millions of diesel owners don't even know when a regen is occurring and they stop and go without concerns or problems.

GDE extends the regen interval a lot, SFT does not - two different philosophies. GDE users claim they have a cleaner tune. SFT tends to agree with factory regen philosophy.

Tune wise you will be satisfied with either the GDE or SFT. The considerations are the installation processes, the offered features and the price. SFT has a Labor Day Sale @ 20% off.

I asked Jimmy (SFT) if he would hold the sale price open while you decide. He said, "Absolutely! John…let him Know I will personally toss in some extra goodies because you personally referred him."

Cheers!

 

[Pekozip93]

Pekozip93

Both SFT & GDE turn off the EGR. You do not have to do any deleting of the emission system.

My thoughts regards the above Regen comments:
I question that "regens create a whole other set of issues". Think about it, if they did there would be huge problems for all owners of the 8+million (USA-2016) non-commercial diesel vehicles in operation. Yes, Regens use a shot of fuel but not enough that you'll notice in your overall mpg. And you do not have to "drive around endlessly to complete regen's". Driving around to complete is a choice that a few elect to do. The millions of diesel owners don't even know when a regen is occurring and they stop and go without concerns or problems.

GDE extends the regen interval a lot, SFT does not - two different philosophies. GDE users claim they have a cleaner tune. SFT tends to agree with factory regen philosophy.

Tune wise you will be satisfied with either the GDE or SFT. The considerations are the installation processes, the offered features and the price. SFT has a Labor Day Sale @ 20% off.

I asked Jimmy (SFT) if he would hold the sale price open while you decide. He said, "Absolutely! John…let him Know I will personally toss in some extra goodies because you personally referred him."

Cheers!

Loving all this info and thank you for the pricing offer from SFT! Much appreciated!
Regarding REGENS... when I’m doing lots of highway, my concern is near zero. Trouble is, I’m in Toronto, Canada and due to my job find myself occasionally struggling through downtown traffic, at its worst i may be doing 30KM daily of dead slow stop and go for a week. Again this would be the worst scenario, and perhaps one week out of the 4, the remainder is west of Toronto, still city but higher speeds less conjestion.
Mixed into all that, could be a week of highway, maybe 1500 Km at passing lane speed. otherwise on the weekends I’m doing about an hour or two of highway, so it all seems to balance out...so far...21000KM on the odometer. This past winter, when in city, I ran it in tow haul mode, otherwise given the cold it takes a long time for the engine to reach temp.
I have about 400lbs in the bed maybe twice monthly, tow 5000lb a few times a year, otherwise its a DD and (multiple smelly Hockey Bag carrying machine)
Considering all this, I guess its the “reason” for the Regen that most concerns me, the fear of that damn DPF going to 100%. (I have never had any EVIC warning)

I was unaware of the REGEN difference between the tunes you and cds noted.
So is this difference as simple as: SFT leaves Regen frequency/target DPF level as stock, where GDE lets the DPF soot level get higher then does a longer REGEN, so with GDE longer process but less frequent than SFT?
Does GDE run a higher EGT during this process than SFT?

Thanks in advance very interesting.

 

[cds13ca]

Something else to consider - GDE tune is written by the engineers who work there. SFT is only sold here but is actually written by a company in Bulgaria called Optical Remap Ltd. So would you rather your truck get tuned by a company here in the USA where they test the tune on their own trucks over and over or some company in

View attachment 2275

Pekozip93

Both SFT & GDE turn off the EGR. You do not have to do any deleting of the emission system.

My thoughts regards the above Regen comments:
I question that "regens create a whole other set of issues". Think about it, if they did there would be huge problems for all owners of the 8+million (USA-2016) non-commercial diesel vehicles in operation. Yes, Regens use a shot of fuel but not enough that you'll notice in your overall mpg. And you do not have to "drive around endlessly to complete regen's". Driving around to complete is a choice that a few elect to do. The millions of diesel owners don't even know when a regen is occurring and they stop and go without concerns or problems.

GDE extends the regen interval a lot, SFT does not - two different philosophies. GDE users claim they have a cleaner tune. SFT tends to agree with factory regen philosophy.

Tune wise you will be satisfied with either the GDE or SFT. The considerations are the installation processes, the offered features and the price. SFT has a Labor Day Sale @ 20% off.

I asked Jimmy (SFT) if he would hold the sale price open while you decide. He said, "Absolutely! John…let him Know I will personally toss in some extra goodies because you personally referred him."

Cheers!

Very true, there are a lot of owners who have no idea about regens (I've heard some say, "I've gone 50,000 miles and only had one regen", not realizing that they've had 3-400 regens they didn't even know happened, and there are a lot I read about who end up at the dealer getting "forced regen's", and paying out of pocket for something that could be avoided.

I feel it's wise to have an idea when they occur, how often they occur and complete it from start to finish. IMO, during regens, if you're dumping excess fuel which doesn't always get burned during a regen, you are also increasing the likelihood of fuel dilution in your oil, do that over and over and over with excessive regen's and it is likely it could happen. I'd be very interested to see oil analysis for people running different tunes. I know someone who ran a tune (not any of the ones that we're discussing) and after recognizing excessive regens from the tune, he did several oil analysis and was getting fuel dilution in the moderate to high levels. When he asked the tuner about that, the tuner wiped his hands clean of it, wasn't his tune, he only sold it but he didn't write it, there was nothing he could do... Since then he switched to GDE and fuel dilution hasn't had the issue anymore.

Another thing to consider, a DPF has a life span, like any car/truck part. Plug it up with soot, regen, plug it up, regen, and continue doing that over and over, eventually the DPF's life span will be done or it'll become so contaminated that you're getting even more excessive regens, and who pays for a new DPF once warranty is done... If we can reduce regens significantly, IMO, that in theory will get you more years out of the DPF before issues occur.

Lots of little things to think about when making the decision.

 

[cds13ca]

Loving all this info and thank you for the pricing offer from SFT! Much appreciated!
Regarding REGENS... when I’m doing lots of highway, my concern is near zero. Trouble is, I’m in Toronto, Canada and due to my job find myself occasionally struggling through downtown traffic, at its worst i may be doing 30KM daily of dead slow stop and go for a week. Again this would be the worst scenario, and perhaps one week out of the 4, the remainder is west of Toronto, still city but higher speeds less conjestion.
Mixed into all that, could be a week of highway, maybe 1500 Km at passing lane speed. otherwise on the weekends I’m doing about an hour or two of highway, so it all seems to balance out...so far...21000KM on the odometer. This past winter, when in city, I ran it in tow haul mode, otherwise given the cold it takes a long time for the engine to reach temp.
I have about 400lbs in the bed maybe twice monthly, tow 5000lb a few times a year, otherwise its a DD and (multiple smelly Hockey Bag carrying machine)
Considering all this, I guess its the “reason” for the Regen that most concerns me, the fear of that damn DPF going to 100%. (I have never had any EVIC warning)

I was unaware of the REGEN difference between the tunes you and cds noted.
So is this difference as simple as: SFT leaves Regen frequency/target DPF level as stock, where GDE lets the DPF soot level get higher then does a longer REGEN, so with GDE longer process but less frequent than SFT?
Does GDE run a higher EGT during this process than SFT?

Thanks in advance very interesting.

I'm in Mississauga, I see the same traffic. Honestly, I've tracked my regens and every regen occurs between 1150-1250 km with GDE, and that's with a LOT of city driving!!

You can get yourself an OBDII scanner and an android app called Torque Pro, for a very low cost to monitor your regens. I got that to put my mind at ease so I'd have a better idea of when they'd occur and plan to be on the highway when it hit 78-79%. Here's what you can monitor: (to give you an idea of GDE regen temps. What's more important during regen is the DPF temps, notice when ON, they hit 1300 F, when off, they drop back to around 600 once it cools off.

GDE is in Michigan, I made a weekend trip of it, drove down, then I didn't have to worry about sending anything off, no down time, brought some friends, made an appt with GDE, then if there were any issues (which there weren't), I was in house with GDE at my fingertips. It's not that far...

 

[John Jensen]

Pekozip93,

Considering all this, I guess its the “reason” for the Regen that most concerns me, the fear of that damn DPF going to 100%. (I have never had any EVIC warning)
My driving is similar to yours except I am doing 80-95% 4-12 mile trips. OEM, GDE or SFT I have never had and EVIC warning at any soot level.

I was unaware of the REGEN difference between the tunes you and cds noted.
So is this difference as simple as: SFT leaves Regen frequency/target DPF level as stock,
Yes, 66%
where GDE lets the DPF soot level get higher
Yes, 80%
then does a longer REGEN,
I believe regens last the same, regardless of the trigger %
so with GDE longer process but less frequent than SFT?
I don't think it's a longer process, it is less frequent. SFT frequency is similar to stock frequencies. GDE stretch theirs considerably, like 600-800 miles. GDE has said % soot is meaningless. They use a formula.
Does GDE run a higher EGT during this process than SFT?
No, as I understand it, a regen is a regen regardless of the tune

 

[cds13ca]

Pekozip93,

Considering all this, I guess its the “reason” for the Regen that most concerns me, the fear of that damn DPF going to 100%. (I have never had any EVIC warning)
My driving is similar to yours except I am doing 80-95% 4-12 mile trips. OEM, GDE or SFT I have never had and EVIC warning at any soot level.

I was unaware of the REGEN difference between the tunes you and cds noted.
So is this difference as simple as: SFT leaves Regen frequency/target DPF level as stock,
Yes, 66%
where GDE lets the DPF soot level get higher
Yes, 80%
then does a longer REGEN,
I believe regens last the same, regardless of the trigger %
so with GDE longer process but less frequent than SFT?
I don't think it's a longer process, less frequent. SFT frequency is similar to stock frequencies. GDE stretch theirs considerably, like 600-800 miles. GDE has said % soot is meaningless. They use a formula.
Does GDE run a higher EGT during this process than SFT?
No, as I understand it, a regen is a regen regardless of the tune

I agree with John! When I was stock, my regen times were about 8-10 min long (approx 8-10 km of highway driving). With GDE, the time to complete a regen might be 10-12 min, nothing significantly longer than before. I've actually been able to keep a regen going in traffic or at a light (I just put it in neutral while I wait and rev it up a little to keep the dpf tems high). Obviously it's better if it's moving but it can be done if you have the app so you can see what the temps are at...

On the images I shared, with Torque Pro, when it starts a regen, the soot levels jump from 80% to 100% until regen is complete. That's just on the screen app (I'm not sure why it does that), but in reality, the levels are not actually at 100% (only unless they were at 100% before you went into regen)..

Once the regen is done, it restarts around 8.4 or 8.6% (a little lower than stock which was around 9.2 or 9.4% (I don't recall the number).

All in all, GDE gives you a much longer time frame between regens, esp with city driving. I know what annoyed me, was I do a lot of city driving, and with stock tune, I was getting regen's every 2 days and I'd have to find a highway to complete it (good luck in Toronto when there's always traffic!!) It was becoming a PIA cause it was so frequent and with all the traffic, it was so hard to get the dpf up to temp... Now I regen every 2.5 weeks, sometimes 3.5 weeks if I did a lot of highway driving.

 

[John Jensen]

cds13ca,

I agree with what you say and experienced and driving to complete is a pain. I have done all that and experienced all that as well.

I liked the longer GDE regens and their tune. The controversy over regens long or short is complex for sure. There's a lot of opinions that make sense regarding a longer regen interval equals a cleaner tune. I think I believe that, however, for me the jury is still out. No conclusion because there is so much controversy.

GDE's reply on a other thread really confused me.
I posted:
I use an Edge Insight CTS2 - #84130 to track regens and soot levels. I'm not going to speak to regens in my SFT-GDE comparison PDF file because GDE and SFT take different approaches to regens. For example, GDE starts a regen at the 80% soot level. SFT starts a regen at the 65% soot level.

I am tracking my SFT soot levels, distance between regens and distance to complete a regen.

GDE replied:
The soot level % is just a conversion from the resistance flow model. It is a meaningless value, GDE 80% is stock and SFT 65% if you look at the grams of loading in the dpf. SFT is cheaper for a reason. If you look at the technical data like fuel economy, performance, miles between regens, oil analysis, etc., you will see the differences.

I respect GDE and their expertise but when they say % soot level is meaningless I go short to ground. As far as I know, % soot is an industry standard for triggering regens, etc.

Why would it be meaningless? What say you about regen intervals?

 

[John]

The soot level is determined by the back pressure. Pressure is monitored before and after the DPF. When it reaches a critical point and needs to be burned off, a regen is necessary. This pressure difference can be indicated by any percent number you care to use. The percentage is just that a arbitrary number.

Think of it this way. When the DPF reaches 100% full, do you think it's actually 100% full? Of course not. The engine couldn't even run if it was, It's simply enough back pressure for FCA to put the truck into limp mode until a regen can be forced.

The GDE tune generates very little soot compared to stock tuning. The less soot produced the less regens required. The less regens the better for a number of reasons such as DPF life, fuel dilution in the oil, reduced fuel economy, cylinder washing just to name a few.

 

[cds13ca]

I believe what GDE means is that % soot that we see on a monitor isn't actually measuring how many grams of soot are in the DPF, but instead it looks at the pressure going into the DPF and the pressure exiting the DPF. Once the pressure drop is significant enough, (80% for gde) it triggers a regen. .

Probably meaningless isn't the best choice of words. How I read that is the trigger point for a regen is meaningless, 66%, 70%, 80% doesn't matter what number you set it at to trigger the regen.

What is more important to ask is how quick is soot accumulating in the DPF in the first place. After a regen until you get to 66%, how many km/miles can you go?

With GDE, for me to get to 66%, I am around 850 km before I get to 66% (with stock, I was at 66% every 150-200 km), so the length of time it takes even to get to the 66% trigger point is elongated.

 

[Pekozip93]

The soot level is determined by the back pressure. Pressure is monitored before and after the DPF. When it reaches a critical point and needs to be burned off, a regen is necessary. This pressure difference can be indicated by any percent number you care to use. The percentage is just that a arbitrary number.

Think of it this way. When the DPF reaches 100% full, do you think it's actually 100% full? Of course not. The engine couldn't even run if it was, It's simply enough back pressure for FCA to put the truck into limp mode until a regen can be forced.

The GDE tune generates very little soot compared to stock tuning. The less soot produced the less regens required. The less regens the better for a number of reasons such as DPF life, fuel dilution in the oil, reduced fuel economy, cylinder washing just to name a few.

Hello John
What is different about the GDE tune regarding its soot output compared to stock? Is this simply the elimination of EGR that accomplishes that or is it more complex than that? Thanks

 

[John]

GDE says pilot injection is the main soot producer of the Ecodiesel. From my understanding they have put a huge amount of R&D into their tune and this is what makes them stand out amongst the small crowd of tuners out there.

 

[John Jensen]

cds13ca 7 John

Thanks for your clarifications - you made it easy for me to understand.

So the question that is left for me is if SFT & GDE both turn off the EGR and the pilot injections, why does SFT reach 66% sooner and GDE reach 80% for so much longer an interval? There must be more to it.

 

[cds13ca]

GDE says pilot injection is the main soot producer of the Ecodiesel. From my understanding they have put a huge amount of R&D into their tune and this is what makes them stand out amongst the small crowd of tuners out there.

Agree with John, from my understanding, GDE removes pilot injection which is what reduces the soot production.

 

[cds13ca]

cds13ca 7 John

Thanks for your clarifications - you made it easy for me to understand.

So the question that is left for me is if SFT & GDE both turn off the EGR and the pilot injections, why does SFT reach 66% sooner and GDE reach 80% for so much longer an interval? There must be more to it.

I don't think SFT shuts off pilot injection. Do you know that for a fact? Yes both shut off EGR, but it is my understanding that only GDE shuts off the pilot injection which reduces the soot. I'd be curious to know if SFT shuts off pilot injection or not.