engine failure @ 148000 miles.

[CaptainMal]

I don't deserve any praise. I am just a fisherman. While I was easily catching giant gag grouper today, Shawn was fishing around trying to figure things out.

He's the man. Thanks for the update.

 

[cevans]

Have you done a compression test? If pump and injectors are healthy that's all that is left really. I haven't found a good disaster tool, but the factory too can display injection amount and timing so you can see if any of the injectors are reading off time or out of balance.

I am always very, very, very....very skeptical whenever someone claims the pump, injectors, XYZ "test fine". That is meaningless to help diagnose. What was done with the injectors? Op test, flow test, computerized analysis of spray pattern. And the pump - was it actually sent to a Bosch center and put into a test machine?

Diesels are simple: fuel + compression = boom. Any problems are one of those two things. With the modern injection systems the fueling part is pretty easiy to diagnose.

 

[moparecodiesel]

It isn't technically blown. It was a serious design flaw in the exhaust side cam. The engineering design is too stupid to explain in typing. I'm going to make a video about it. It is scary. Every engine will have this problem. The gears on the exhaust side passenger head are only held on by 1 bolt. The hpfp gear only is held on by bolt pressure and there is nothing else holding the hpfp gear to the exhaust cam gear other than just friction? There's no pins, keyways, dowels or nothing, so that bolt torque slightly changes, bam the cam timing gear slips and valves start smacking the tops of the pistons. This happened to all of our original engines and there is a redesign on the bolt holding the two gears together, but we don't see how this absolutely epic fail of a design could get any better by a bolt. I guess I couldn't escape the ultimate doom like everyone else on the ram1500diesel forum did. I'm just in awe of how stupid of a design this was. The bolt was still torqued too, he had to use an impact to get it loose, so it diddnt technically back off. I just requested too much fuel pressure from the hpfp which caused drag on the hpfp gear which caused a small slip, which is why my motor isn't completely blown and we couldn't find any damage anywhere and my oil samples are perfect. This wasn't my fault or caused by me adding an oil separator or any filtration system or not using the zf transmission fluid, this was just an epic fail of a design

 

[CaptainMal]

If you can now explain that it can be fixed or has been fixed ... I will say "hooray" and will also drink to that.

Super thanks for the replay and explanation.

***As an aside, I might miss the video as I plan on heading to Georgia and my hunting camp for a few weeks. The little iPhone is a bummer for me to use on the phone lines out in the country but occasionally I do take a look.

 

[Brady]

I'm glad to hear it wasn't your fault.

 

[Stan Laurel]

I'm hopeful that VMM/FCA will engineer a solution and a recall so we can all rest easier as our trucks age. Thanks for alerting us to this issue.

 

[cevans]

"The hpfp gear only is held on by bolt pressure and there is nothing else holding the hpfp gear to the exhaust cam gear other than just friction? There's no pins, keyways, dowels or nothing, so that bolt torque slightly changes, bam the cam timing gear slips and valves start smacking the tops of the pistons."

This isn't news nor a design fail. Every modern european diesel uses this type design. VWs, Jeeps, BMWs etc. They are all friction fit without keyways held in with one bolt. I've worked on motors with 600k plus on them with this setup, so it doesn't cause one bit of concern to me.

The question is why did the gear slip. Over time the friction fit will become stronger, not weaker. It is a one-time use bolt, however. Was this bolt every removed and reinstalled? That could cause this.

There aren't enough engines with 100k+ miles on them to make any conclusions about design flaws or patterns. That being said, for those who want the extra security, it might be a good idea to swap out that bolt every 100 or 120k miles....

And you really should change the title of this post to: "Exhaust Camshaft Slipped Time & Caused Damage." If the slip was small and you have tapping that means that the valve is still intact. It might be possible to remove the head, put in new valves, and be back on the road.

 

[CaptainMal]

That sheds another light on the situation. Really appreciate your opinion and experience.

 

[BoostN]

Great post @cevans

All of us working together will help the EcoDiesel community and that benefits everyone!

@moparecodiesel

Keep us updated!

 

[seiko]

It does seem that the design is similar to other diesels. Which may indicate generally reliable, but can fail for other reasons. Keep us posted.

here what one thing I read, hopefully it the same subject/area of concern...

In addition to the high injection rate, the engine uses a Bosch high pressure fuel pump that is able to maintain 2,000 bar (roughly 29,000psi) in both fuel rails. The pump is driven off of the exhaust camshaft via a gear to gear mesh. The pump is mounted to the front cover on the passenger’s side (right side) and is a twin pump style much like the Duramax and 6.7 Power Stroke. The engine’s firing order is (1-4-2-5-3-6). The engineers optimized the firing order to manage the inertia and firing loads eliminating any need for a balance shaft, common to many V6 engines.

 

[GNR]

Looking forward to the video Shawn so we can understand what happened.

So, is it fixed now? If so, was anything damaged or was it just a case of aligning the gears properly again?

 

[GNR]

"The hpfp gear only is held on by bolt pressure and there is nothing else holding the hpfp gear to the exhaust cam gear other than just friction? There's no pins, keyways, dowels or nothing, so that bolt torque slightly changes, bam the cam timing gear slips and valves start smacking the tops of the pistons."

This isn't news nor a design fail. Every modern european diesel uses this type design. VWs, Jeeps, BMWs etc. They are all friction fit without keyways held in with one bolt. I've worked on motors with 600k plus on them with this setup, so it doesn't cause one bit of concern to me.

The question is why did the gear slip. Over time the friction fit will become stronger, not weaker. It is a one-time use bolt, however. Was this bolt every removed and reinstalled? That could cause this.

There aren't enough engines with 100k+ miles on them to make any conclusions about design flaws or patterns. That being said, for those who want the extra security, it might be a good idea to swap out that bolt every 100 or 120k miles....

And you really should change the title of this post to: "Exhaust Camshaft Slipped Time & Caused Damage." If the slip was small and you have tapping that means that the valve is still intact. It might be possible to remove the head, put in new valves, and be back on the road.

I'm sure a video from Shawn will help, but how exactly does the friction fit become stronger over time?

 

[moparecodiesel]

sometimes life takes you through some weird little journey and makes you have rough experiences that cost you time, money, patience, family troubles, and loss of time with your loved ones. Its been a really rough expensive 40 days for me and needless to say ive been working all day and night for the past week on this old 88 gmc truck, from the gas tank falling off to fixing everything trying to just make it through a night without the TBI catching on fire. im tired of renting trucks as its cost me $1400 so far, and my little red express will be "down" for the next 2-4 weeks depending on how it turns out. Im super lucky and excited i found the shop i did with the two owners personally taking a big risk experimenting on my engine. It seems my little truck gets put through the paces at my own expense for everyone elses benefit and entertainment over my successes and failures. I could have taken my truck into any diesel shop and done the quick bandaid and slapped my new powertrain in and been on the road weeks ago right? but that wouldnt have solved another engine from having my valves smack the tops of my pistons. Somehow i gave it the green light and am completely ok with my truck being a test mule once again, for my sake, the shops sake and the future of out little ecodiesel engine their ma still be hope, there have been only three types of documented cases of failures with this engine, and if you can make it past 20-40,000 miles, it seems you have missed the two failures, but there is a third impending failure of design that still has unpredictable outcome. and its not from a loose bolt or any mods done to the engine. If everything goes as planned for these guys working on my truck, my engine will be damn near bullet proof with the egr delete and ccv monitor delete, theres nothing stopping my motor. @ 5000 hours on the engine, and 148k my cams, chains and everything else in my motor are in mint condition, the cams are gorgeous, and deserve a second chance. as you all know i painted my entire new powertrain CAT yellow, my favorite engine, i know its sacrilegious, but i did it for a reason, if you ever see anything cat yellow in my truck, youll know its been replaced. hopefully within a month i can release a new video on a shop that can bulletproof your ecodiesel with tuning and engine mods, their way. shawn.

 

[moparecodiesel]

these are some crappy pics of my engine as of monday

 

[cevans]

Shawn -

I'm sorry to hear that its been a few hard weeks for you. These things always seem to come in waterfalls.

That being said, this whole post structure you are following is making me very uncomfortable. You've taken a "the sky is falling" approach to this whole thing, when in reality it may not be that big of a deal. First off, while you are the post prolific of the high mileage EDs, you aren't alone. As time goes one we'll see, but your one experience here in no way guarantees that everyone else will have the same problem.

I still think you should give us some more information about what damage was caused. In those images of the exterior of your motor, the rocker-arm assemblies are clearly visible. Those arm assemblies will break when the piston hits the valves. Most commonly in this design the rockers can be replaced and you can be on your way. From my experience in this field, dropping a whole new engine in because of a timing slip seems really over dramatic.

I hate to be harsh, but the fervor you are flaming up here doesn't seem warranted. There isn't a catastrophic design issue, your motor didn't fail, and I don't think you needed to put in a whole new engine.

 

[Brady]

I hate to be harsh, but the fervor you are flaming up here doesn't seem warranted. There isn't a catastrophic design issue, your motor didn't fail, and I don't think you needed to put in a whole new engine.

Moparecodiesel is relating his opinions, as are you. We are left to interpret each, not as an absolute, but as an angle, no matter the intensity of which they're expressed.

Let's keep this civil, and not start a pissing match please. Thanks!

 

[BoostN]

Thanks for the pictures Shawn..

We all need to come together as one to support each other. That will benefit us more than having battles on forums. I like you all, and I'm not one to battle online.. so let's just move on and enjoy each other.

 

[moparecodiesel]

Time was only paused for a time, but luckily not restarted. A special thanks to the guys at D&J diesel in midvale Utah who could have just threw new parts at it and sent me on my way, but they took the time to actually find the cause, and permanently fix the cams so it will never happen again. This was actually a gradual problem that was developing for at least 30 days prior to the isuzu npr like rattle coming from the engine. There is an inherent flaw with the way the exhaust cam is bolted together. They will slip and have been slipping since the beginning of these trucks. The complete fuel system was tested and verified in 100% working order and have a 12000 hr minimum life cycle. My truck is quieter now and does not have the vibration I felt long before I noticed anything. D&J diesel saved me $33000.00 from the estimate and diagnosis from two dealers and $23000 from all the other shops suggesting a long block assembly.
Go to www.dandjdiesel.com and they can give you everything you'll need to bulletproof your ecodiesel and accessorize and maintain your ecodiesel.
I am not getting discounts, perks or compensation for promoting them. I am proud of what they did for me. Without them I had zero confidence and hope for this engine. Thanks shawn

 

[Brady]

Glad you're back on the road Shawn.

 

[BoostN]

Glad all is well Shawn..