New guy

[retired23]

My first post. "To delete or not to delete?" That is the question. Pros and cons please. Anybody get into legal trouble or fines?
Thanks Tim

 

[John Jensen]

Depends on what state you live in. In Califunny you would not pass smog and would not be able to register your truck. I'm against deleting/deleters as it is the worst EPA sin. And, it does pollute the environment. A good stage1 tune will give you performance satisfaction.

I know of a case about a guy who lived in a "no smog" zip code, so he deleted. He was driving to work in the city (where smog inspections are required) and he got stopped by a roadside check point. They impounded his truck on the spot. He paid some hefty fines to get his truck back, and he had to prove that he returned it to stock emissions equipment.

 

[retired23]

Thanks John. I'm also against pollution but I'm worried about a catastrophic failure in the future on my $$$ investment! I've read some horror stories about engines blowing up or catching on fire.

 

[John Jensen]

Thanks John. I'm also against pollution but I'm worried about a catastrophic failure in the future on my $$$ investment! I've read some horror stories about engines blowing up or catching on fire.

Deleting will not prevent an engine failure. It will prevent fire from hot manifolds, but that has dwindled, maybe stopped, since recall TSB VB1 that replaced the defective EGR Coolers.

 

[Mesatoneman]

Here’s a pic of a non egr decommissioned eco diesel. Wouldn’t think all the crusty black stuff is good for internals

 

[John Jensen]

View attachment 3708Here’s a pic of a non egr decommissioned eco diesel. Wouldn’t think all the crusty black stuff is good for internals

Yep. Wonder how many miles on that one.
That's why we have a tune that shuts off the EGR

 

[Mesatoneman]

Yah that was at 25k miles. The day I shut it down

 

[retired23]

Does that particular tune have a name? I assume it's not a "delete", is it legal?

 

[Mesatoneman]

Im running SFT stage 1 currently with egr off option

 

[Mesatoneman]

Not sure about last question lol

 

[John Jensen]

Does that particular tune have a name? I assume it's not a "delete", is it legal?

SFT and MRT tuners have stage1 tunes that shut off the EGR. No tune is legal

 

[Frit]

I've been thinking the same thing on my JGC EcoDiesel. I am currently running a stage 1 tune and do have the EGR completely removed. I keep thinking about the pollution created by going to stage 2 compared to what is created by using the DEF and DPF systems.

I've been doing a lot of research on this, and I am beginning to believe that the "pollution" factor between being deleted and not deleted balances out, or may even favour being fully deleted in a good way. Lets take a look at what is going on with each system. Now I am no "expert" on any of this but have drawn my own conclusions with my research.

EGR. Been used for years on both diesels and gas engines. The theory behind this is to "cool" the combustion process of the fuel by diluting the air fuel charge which is suppose to lower NOX emissions, which it does, but engine efficiency suffers, so to compensate you add more fuel to make up for it. Now supposedly in modern vehciles, the EGR is really only active at certain times such as cruising, and or idle situations, and is bypassed when power is demanded. Makes sense, if you think about it, because you'd be surprised how little time the engine actually runs in a "high" load situation.

Crankcase Ventilation. Another "pollution" control system that is suppose to recycle the vapours that get created in the crankcase as well as keep the internal engine pressure neutral to not blow out seals. Back in the roaring fun days, this was just ventilated to the atmosphere, but you did end up with oil dripping onto the ground. Now, the idea is to recycle these vapours back into the intake to get burned off so to speak. Now, this has created a big problem on diesels combined with the EGR above. The EGR is exhaust gas that has soot in it, AND that is getting mixed with an oily vapour mix that will created "sludge" that will gum everything up.

DOC (Catalytic converter). Yes, our ecodiesels, and most modern diesels do have one, and it exists before the DPF. Actually works like a cat in a gas engine, but made more for diesel in this case. So it purpose is to lower NOx emissions and the side benefit of it's working is the smell of the diesel fumes is made lower. These have been around since the 90's I believe and have worked quite well.

DPF filter. So the diesel particulate filter captures the "soot" that is produced so it does not come out of the tail pipe. Effective, but one of the most hated parts of the system because of the issues it causes. Primarily, the dreaded regen. This is one area that to me kind of negates the benefits of everything else, because you need to dump raw diesel into the DPF to super heat it to clean it out, and eventually will need to be pulled and either replaced which is VERY costly or at least cleaned and flushed to get the ash out of it. Because you are dumping raw diesel, either into the exhaust stroke of the engine (most diesels including our little diesel that can) which is not good for a lot of reasons , or directly injected into the exhaust before the filter. This in itself will produce significant amount of NOx as well as other emissions we don't want to know about that comes out the tail pipe. All in all, this is a system to me that in the grand scheme of things, causes way more pollution than not having one installed.... again only my thoughts on this.

DEF and SCR. Finally, having this stand alone system on the exhaust which is suppose to hugely reduce the amount of NOx coming out is effective in that job, but the by product that gets generated besides water and hydrogen.... ammonia, and do you know what will kill you faster than any of the other stuff coming out of the tail pipe? Yup, ammonia. California as well as other states are showing that this process is killing vegetation along highways etc.

So armed with the information I've researched I have come to the conclusion that I will go ahead with my stage 2 delete with the following setup.

1. Oil catch can which I have installed now. Over 10000 km's it has captured about 500ml of oil which is great because that is not going into my intake manifold. Some people have stated this is not required since the engine supposedly has a centrifugal separator, but that ain't working 100% obviously.
2. EGR is off and uninstalled. If I knew I could trust the setup without it causing issues, and with the catch can installed, I'd seriously consider running it to lower the NOx, but because it is tied into all the other stuff going on, I don't think it would be easy to tune around that setup, so for now it stays off. Maybe once I get my own tuning gear, I'll look at it.
3. I am going to install a magnaflow diesel catalytic converter in place of the DPF filter. You need to keep this cat close to the engine as possible to be fully effective. At least I'm trying to get rid of some of the NOx that is going out.
4. Removing the SCR and DEF tank. Not much to say here other than being thankful I'm not getting ammonia gas.

Also because of the fuel programming on the modern diesels what with multi-injection per cycle, these engines do not produce garbage like they use to, and burn a lot more cleaner. With all of this, I don't think I'm going to be pushing any more emissions out than what I do now. Remember, some of this stuff was more political and money making as well than being functional.

Just my 0.002 cents worth. All I suggest at this point, is do your own research and draw your own conclusions. I bought the diesel so I can get 10 more mpg out of it than the hemi even if I am towing a camper, which in itself saves the environment..... and my wallet.

Frit

 

[John Jensen]

I've been thinking the same thing on my JGC EcoDiesel. I am currently running a stage 1 tune and do have the EGR completely removed. I keep thinking about the pollution created by going to stage 2 compared to what is created by using the DEF and DPF systems.

I've been doing a lot of research on this, and I am beginning to believe that the "pollution" factor between being deleted and not deleted balances out, or may even favour being fully deleted in a good way. Lets take a look at what is going on with each system. Now I am no "expert" on any of this but have drawn my own conclusions with my research.

EGR. Been used for years on both diesels and gas engines. The theory behind this is to "cool" the combustion process of the fuel by diluting the air fuel charge which is suppose to lower NOX emissions, which it does, but engine efficiency suffers, so to compensate you add more fuel to make up for it. Now supposedly in modern vehciles, the EGR is really only active at certain times such as cruising, and or idle situations, and is bypassed when power is demanded. Makes sense, if you think about it, because you'd be surprised how little time the engine actually runs in a "high" load situation.

Crankcase Ventilation. Another "pollution" control system that is suppose to recycle the vapours that get created in the crankcase as well as keep the internal engine pressure neutral to not blow out seals. Back in the roaring fun days, this was just ventilated to the atmosphere, but you did end up with oil dripping onto the ground. Now, the idea is to recycle these vapours back into the intake to get burned off so to speak. Now, this has created a big problem on diesels combined with the EGR above. The EGR is exhaust gas that has soot in it, AND that is getting mixed with an oily vapour mix that will created "sludge" that will gum everything up.

DOC (Catalytic converter). Yes, our ecodiesels, and most modern diesels do have one, and it exists before the DPF. Actually works like a cat in a gas engine, but made more for diesel in this case. So it purpose is to lower NOx emissions and the side benefit of it's working is the smell of the diesel fumes is made lower. These have been around since the 90's I believe and have worked quite well.

DPF filter. So the diesel particulate filter captures the "soot" that is produced so it does not come out of the tail pipe. Effective, but one of the most hated parts of the system because of the issues it causes. Primarily, the dreaded regen. This is one area that to me kind of negates the benefits of everything else, because you need to dump raw diesel into the DPF to super heat it to clean it out, and eventually will need to be pulled and either replaced which is VERY costly or at least cleaned and flushed to get the ash out of it. Because you are dumping raw diesel, either into the exhaust stroke of the engine (most diesels including our little diesel that can) which is not good for a lot of reasons , or directly injected into the exhaust before the filter. This in itself will produce significant amount of NOx as well as other emissions we don't want to know about that comes out the tail pipe. All in all, this is a system to me that in the grand scheme of things, causes way more pollution than not having one installed.... again only my thoughts on this.

DEF and SCR. Finally, having this stand alone system on the exhaust which is suppose to hugely reduce the amount of NOx coming out is effective in that job, but the by product that gets generated besides water and hydrogen.... ammonia, and do you know what will kill you faster than any of the other stuff coming out of the tail pipe? Yup, ammonia. California as well as other states are showing that this process is killing vegetation along highways etc.

So armed with the information I've researched I have come to the conclusion that I will go ahead with my stage 2 delete with the following setup.

1. Oil catch can which I have installed now. Over 10000 km's it has captured about 500ml of oil which is great because that is not going into my intake manifold. Some people have stated this is not required since the engine supposedly has a centrifugal separator, but that ain't working 100% obviously.
2. EGR is off and uninstalled. If I knew I could trust the setup without it causing issues, and with the catch can installed, I'd seriously consider running it to lower the NOx, but because it is tied into all the other stuff going on, I don't think it would be easy to tune around that setup, so for now it stays off. Maybe once I get my own tuning gear, I'll look at it.
3. I am going to install a magnaflow diesel catalytic converter in place of the DPF filter. You need to keep this cat close to the engine as possible to be fully effective. At least I'm trying to get rid of some of the NOx that is going out.
4. Removing the SCR and DEF tank. Not much to say here other than being thankful I'm not getting ammonia gas.

Also because of the fuel programming on the modern diesels what with multi-injection per cycle, these engines do not produce garbage like they use to, and burn a lot more cleaner. With all of this, I don't think I'm going to be pushing any more emissions out than what I do now. Remember, some of this stuff was more political and money making as well than being functional.

Just my 0.002 cents worth. All I suggest at this point, is do your own research and draw your own conclusions. I bought the diesel so I can get 10 more mpg out of it than the hemi even if I am towing a camper, which in itself saves the environment..... and my wallet.

Frit

I wasn't aware of the SCR's ammonia production, or its killing freeway vegetation. You've enlightened me.

Your theory may be better at maintaining or maybe reducing emissions than what's hung on the truck. It definitely will improve performance. The problem is the EPA doesn't care that it may be better, it violates their rules, and is a big violation. So political and autocratic.

Thanks for the report

 

[Mesatoneman]

All good conversation points IMO. I’ll take 2 cents any day of the week. I probably replace the section of pipe and upload the stage 2 as soon as warranty is over. Thoughts and opinions are welcome

 

[Frit]

I wasn't aware of the SCR's ammonia production, or its killing freeway vegetation. You've enlightened me.

Your theory may be better at maintaining or maybe reducing emissions than what's hung on the truck. It definitely will improve performance. The problem is the EPA doesn't care that it may be better, it violates their rules, and is a big violation. So political and autocratic.

Thanks for the report

I hear you on the EPA rules. We're not so bad up here in Ontario as the provincial government dropped the drive clean program except for commercial vehicles. The DOT guys on the road don't bother with folks unless your commercial, or you're blowing a lot of smoke or doing something crazy that draws their attention.

Now if the government would grow some and go after the real polluters instead of us little guys just trying to make a living...... well that is a whole different discussion.

Frit

 

[retired23]

I've been thinking the same thing on my JGC EcoDiesel. I am currently running a stage 1 tune and do have the EGR completely removed. I keep thinking about the pollution created by going to stage 2 compared to what is created by using the DEF and DPF systems.

I've been doing a lot of research on this, and I am beginning to believe that the "pollution" factor between being deleted and not deleted balances out, or may even favour being fully deleted in a good way. Lets take a look at what is going on with each system. Now I am no "expert" on any of this but have drawn my own conclusions with my research.

EGR. Been used for years on both diesels and gas engines. The theory behind this is to "cool" the combustion process of the fuel by diluting the air fuel charge which is suppose to lower NOX emissions, which it does, but engine efficiency suffers, so to compensate you add more fuel to make up for it. Now supposedly in modern vehciles, the EGR is really only active at certain times such as cruising, and or idle situations, and is bypassed when power is demanded. Makes sense, if you think about it, because you'd be surprised how little time the engine actually runs in a "high" load situation.

Crankcase Ventilation. Another "pollution" control system that is suppose to recycle the vapours that get created in the crankcase as well as keep the internal engine pressure neutral to not blow out seals. Back in the roaring fun days, this was just ventilated to the atmosphere, but you did end up with oil dripping onto the ground. Now, the idea is to recycle these vapours back into the intake to get burned off so to speak. Now, this has created a big problem on diesels combined with the EGR above. The EGR is exhaust gas that has soot in it, AND that is getting mixed with an oily vapour mix that will created "sludge" that will gum everything up.

DOC (Catalytic converter). Yes, our ecodiesels, and most modern diesels do have one, and it exists before the DPF. Actually works like a cat in a gas engine, but made more for diesel in this case. So it purpose is to lower NOx emissions and the side benefit of it's working is the smell of the diesel fumes is made lower. These have been around since the 90's I believe and have worked quite well.

DPF filter. So the diesel particulate filter captures the "soot" that is produced so it does not come out of the tail pipe. Effective, but one of the most hated parts of the system because of the issues it causes. Primarily, the dreaded regen. This is one area that to me kind of negates the benefits of everything else, because you need to dump raw diesel into the DPF to super heat it to clean it out, and eventually will need to be pulled and either replaced which is VERY costly or at least cleaned and flushed to get the ash out of it. Because you are dumping raw diesel, either into the exhaust stroke of the engine (most diesels including our little diesel that can) which is not good for a lot of reasons , or directly injected into the exhaust before the filter. This in itself will produce significant amount of NOx as well as other emissions we don't want to know about that comes out the tail pipe. All in all, this is a system to me that in the grand scheme of things, causes way more pollution than not having one installed.... again only my thoughts on this.

DEF and SCR. Finally, having this stand alone system on the exhaust which is suppose to hugely reduce the amount of NOx coming out is effective in that job, but the by product that gets generated besides water and hydrogen.... ammonia, and do you know what will kill you faster than any of the other stuff coming out of the tail pipe? Yup, ammonia. California as well as other states are showing that this process is killing vegetation along highways etc.

So armed with the information I've researched I have come to the conclusion that I will go ahead with my stage 2 delete with the following setup.

1. Oil catch can which I have installed now. Over 10000 km's it has captured about 500ml of oil which is great because that is not going into my intake manifold. Some people have stated this is not required since the engine supposedly has a centrifugal separator, but that ain't working 100% obviously.
2. EGR is off and uninstalled. If I knew I could trust the setup without it causing issues, and with the catch can installed, I'd seriously consider running it to lower the NOx, but because it is tied into all the other stuff going on, I don't think it would be easy to tune around that setup, so for now it stays off. Maybe once I get my own tuning gear, I'll look at it.
3. I am going to install a magnaflow diesel catalytic converter in place of the DPF filter. You need to keep this cat close to the engine as possible to be fully effective. At least I'm trying to get rid of some of the NOx that is going out.
4. Removing the SCR and DEF tank. Not much to say here other than being thankful I'm not getting ammonia gas.

Also because of the fuel programming on the modern diesels what with multi-injection per cycle, these engines do not produce garbage like they use to, and burn a lot more cleaner. With all of this, I don't think I'm going to be pushing any more emissions out than what I do now. Remember, some of this stuff was more political and money making as well than being functional.

Just my 0.002 cents worth. All I suggest at this point, is do your own research and draw your own conclusions. I bought the diesel so I can get 10 more mpg out of it than the hemi even if I am towing a camper, which in itself saves the environment..... and my wallet.

Frit

Thanks Frit. You've given me alot to think about. Great info.

 

[retired23]

Also, has anyone added a cold air intake to their vehicle? What model and what results? Thanks Tim

 

[John Jensen]

Also, has anyone added a cold air intake to their vehicle? What model and what results? Thanks Tim

Save your money. GDE proved a long time ago that the stock intake provides more air than the little turbo can handle. And it is very efficient.

 

[retired23]

Thanks John