Service Electronic Throttle Control - Limp Mode - DPF Full Dealer Service Required

[Deward]

Can anybody definitively share with us what triggers the "Service Electronic Throttle Control?"

Are there zero diesel techs on any of these forums?

I realize it could be a list of things, but I have the SETC, which came on first, and derated the engine... about 3 hours and 150 miles later, the Exhaust Filter 100% Full Dealer Service Required came up. No 80%/90%/drive at highway speeds.... no other warnings. At the time, I did not have my scanner with me, nor did I have any other monitor on the vehicle at the time. I was 250 miles from home and it was cold outside. When I got home (to my heated garage), I let the truck warm up to 60 degrees overnight. Then I used my scanner to read and attempt to clear the codes. There were two codes at that time:

• P0299 - Turbocharger / Supercharger Underboost (was this causing or was it because of the derated situation due to SETC?)
• P2463 - Diesel Particulate Filter Restriction - Soot Accumulation (this came on after it was derated for 150 miles)

My scanner cleared the P0299 code, but could not eliminate the P2463... soon as the vehicle started it came right back.

Next was to take the truck to my local dealer. I found out that their diesel tech (yes, that is singular) would be in Hawaii for 10 days. At that point it turned into a discussion with the service writer and it was decided that there was nothing they could do... travel about 30 miles in three different directions and maybe another dealer could help me out. I left.

I ordered the Edge Insight CTS2 and installed as soon as I updated it. After being frustrated with Edge not being able to do the mobile regen, I turned my attention to a couple other things. Could it be the MAP sensor? MAF? Air filter? Oil itself? Oil filter? Fuel filter? The truck was in -12 F for a couple nights before this happened. But when I got home, I started the truck at 60 degrees, so diesel fuel gelling should not have been an issue. Icing in the intake or turbo should have been mitigated with the warmup in the garage, too.

A week goes by... I end up back at my dealer asking questions and finding out about MAP and MAF sensors and their cost/availability. Then I get the attention of the head service manager and ask about the diesel tech's whereabouts. He is not back until next Monday. When can he look at my truck then? Answer = two Fridays from now ---- or in my eyes, this is getting out of hand. Well, then the service writer I talked to originally says they can scan it and see if there is anything showing up.

They scanned it. No codes other than the DPF [soot level] being full. There is no 'code' for SETC, but there it is on the EVIC. I asked them to verify the PCM was up to date. They said it is current. Then the service writer says they can do a forced regen for $120. Sounds pretty fair from what I have read on these forums. Sure, go for it! Let's clean this thing out.

90+ minutes later, I notice my truck is inside. Apparently they found an Airbag update for the passenger side was a recall item, but just a computer correction to update that issue. That is why it the truck was inside, I was told by the service writer that they ran the forced/park regen twice, but it was still at 347% full ------ WAIT a second, how does one fill anything to 3.5X its limit?? And why did running the WITECH regen cycle twice do nothing at all?

Now I am thinking they are going to charge me $240 for the two regen cycles and truck still the same. Come to find out, when the tech wrote his notes in the computer, he said that the regen was not able to be run, but no explanation as to why not or how to solve either issue. At least the service writer 'did me a favor' and I walked out only paying $85.

I have since called Edge. The Edge CTS2 will not do a mobile regen once the EVIC says "Dealer Service Required." Can they explain why my Edge reads 0% Soot (which I have been told is also not possible -- from Edge directly -- it does not detect anything until 60%, or so I am told)... while the WITECH reads 347%?
See image below. I hear that the RegenDist PID does not work any more with the updated software, even though I am running a 2015 ecodiesel.



I asked Edge where the CTS2 gets the Soot level from... The answer was 'from the PCM.' Okay, but that really does not help me diagnose the problem. Is it back pressure (what sensor is detecting that?), is it intake pressure (MAP?), is it MAF from the air intake, or a differential between the two? Is it between the upstream and downstream sensors before and after the DPF? I think those are only temp sensors, though... and you can see from the Edge, I am getting realistic readings from all 4 sensors. I am also getting some boost, and the P0299 Underboost code has not been around since the day after it happened and I cleared the codes again.

I am still at a loss. I have since done an oil change and removed and cleaned the MAP sensor (yes it was ugly and crusty, but it cleaned up after soaking [just the part past the o-ring] for 20-30 minutes in some MAF sensor cleaner and a soft brush. I tried the old 'disconnect the battery and reset everything option' with no effect. I will be changing the fuel filter later today, but I have driven this for almost 2 weeks since it started and nothing has changed other than the "Turbo Underboost" code is gone. I have gotten good at feathering my shift points to accelerate with the derated mode, but it is miserable. FYI, fuel economy is not terrible, either. Of course, I have no power to use the fuel anyway.

Anybody else ever had a dealer say that the WITECH could not run a regen?
I am pretty sure my local dealer is suffering to find good help, but it sounds like it is pretty common that we end up knowing more about our trucks than most of the dealerships.

Any recommendations?

I am 'out of warranty' at 115,000 miles and getting shafted on the extended warranty transfer from the previous owner to me (this was Mopar/MaxCare's fault -- but that is for another thread someday). And waiting for the emissions extended warranty whenever this settlement gets finalized, seems like a poor option to me. Deleting and Tuning with GDE is definitely my preference if it comes to paying for a new DPF and labor to diagnose and replace everything.

 

[Deward]

Follow up message.

I changed the fuel filter. No change to my situation. Filter looked relatively great for ~10,000 miles in 8 weeks.

Now I am wondering if it might be the AAT (ambient air temperature sensor). My AAT through the Edge CTS2 is saying ~70 degrees when my garage is about 50 degrees, engine cold. Then it went up to 107 while I was out driving the truck after the fuel filter change last night. I have no problems with my EVIC outside air temp or my HVAC.

This cannot be the temp sensor in the driver side mirror, right?

Where is the ambient air temperature sensor for the PCM? NOT the intake manifold sensor or the intake sensor, either. The Edge gives me those temps and they are fine... but my thinking is that the discrepancy between the three of them is too great. Maybe that is causing the derated / limp mode?

Description from the Edge CTS2 monitor for AAT PID:


It is about 8-10 degrees outside -- EVIC is correct:





AAT says 107 degrees F, yet IMAT is 18 and IAT is 15 and the EGTs all seem nominal:

 

[John]

Soot Loading Strategy (Quoted from GDE)

The ECU runs two different strategies in parallel and takes the higher of the two outputs to determine the current soot loading:

Strategy 1 is a simulated value, and is calculated according to how complete the previous regeneration was, and how the engine/vehicle has been operating since then (engine speed, load, ambient conditions, exhaust temps, etc). Different OEMs design different variations of such a strategy, but for the most part the high level concepts are similar. The strategy employed by the Ram's stock tune is fairly rudimentary.

Strategy 2 is a physically measured value calculated off of measured pressure drop across the DPF, the DPF temperature, and the known flow rate of exhaust gasses.

The soot loading is used to trigger the regeneration when all the correct criteria are met.

 

[Deward]

John, thank you for the information. I like knowing more and more about these machines... especially when mine is in need of more understanding at this time.

I stopped back to my local dealer and though Monday is a terrible morning to try to ask them a question, their diesel tech is supposedly back from Hawaii and I am sure he swamped. In a way, he has got to be as backed up as my DPF!

Asked the service adviser the question about the ambient air sensor. Is there a separate sensor for the PCM/engine than the EVIC/dash/HVAC? He ran out to the service bays and came back and just said, "No." I left with not the answer I was hoping for, but maybe it is the correct answer and there is nothing wrong with the sensor in the mirror. Maybe the temps I am getting on the Edge are from another location, totally unrelated to the service electronic throttle control.

I am now waiting for Ogden to wake up and get a call into Edge about their monitor and where this AAT reading comes from.

Otherwise, I have nothing more to go on at this time. No codes other than P2463.

 

[Deward]

My truck is back up to normal operating conditions after yesterday's forced/stationary regen. It only took one cycle.

Note: I have been driving around derated for 3 weeks. My Edge Insight CTS2 monitor arrived 1 week after this problem started. It said 0% soot level, which I thought was strange and even Edge when I talked to them could not explain that, but they admit they do zero testing or development for the ecodiesel. Must be once the Exhaust Filter 100% Full Dealer Service Required message comes up, it puts the Edge into a reading of 0%? I hope I never again see 0% on the Edge!

I did not hook my Edge up until I got home, but it was at 27% after the 20 mile trip home. After running another 40-50 miles throughout the day, I parked it in my garage last night with the Edge indicating 59%.

The dealer's service department and their ecodiesel certified tech did talk me into purchasing a grill cover. For $120 and using a 15% OFF coupon I will use the grill cover in Northern Michigan when it is under 30 degrees if it will keep this from happening. It only cost me $150 to get the regen done this time -- I paid another $85 at my local dealer and they could not get the regen to run -- this dealer has my business going forward.

The tech was obviously not a fan of the ecodiesel, but he was pretty open about giving advice:

1. The truck has a great cooling system. That is not ideal for winter conditions, though. The grill cover is essential for getting the temps up over 190 and he said 200 is better for regens; makes sense, but to me, why is this truck not smart enough to allow the coolant to stay warm enough as long as the truck is above idle and moving down the road?
2. He made a statement that seemed sort of odd to me. He said that I should see the message come up when the truck is not able to maintain less than 80% for the DPF by its normal operation. At 80% he said I should see the EVIC information tell me that it needs to be run at highway speeds and that it is at 80%... same for 90%... Well, I have never seen anything related to regeneration on this truck come up on the EVIC. This is concerning.
3. He did a battery check and it came back at 775 CCA out of its original 800 rating for the stock battery. On a 2015, that seems really good after 4 years. No worries there.
4. They are not fans of anything being plugged into the OBDII port. I told them I bought the Edge to monitor more information than the EVIC displays. They said that some tuners/programmers can affect/trick the computer into thinking that the regen has been run recently or that it is not needed when it is or that the soot level is lower than it really is. Whatever their fears, the tech did say that the Edge monitor should not be any problem (he knows it is not a tuner and he knows the brand).
5. In discussing the previous failure from my local dealer to run the stationary regen, the tech said that it would not run unless the code was active. I said, the code was active as soon as the truck starts up, it never went off as far as I knew... the CEL and SETC lights/messages were always on when the truck was running since this started. He said, no. The code was 'stored or pending' until it goes active once it is driven. So he had to drive the truck to activate the code for the WiTECH2 to run the regen. I will bring this to my local dealer's attention when I go back to see about a refund for their failure.
6. My 7-10 mile one-way trip to town on rural 55mph roads is not enough to regen this system -- especially when the conditions force other drivers to do much less than 55. I can understand this statement if it is true the truck has to be well over 190 to do a regen. The truck gets up to 185-190 about half-way to my office, but then it cools down under 190 whenever I slow down or am off the throttle in these 20 degree or less temps outside. With the grill cover, that should change considerably. If it doesn't I will be the first to report that it is worthless.
7. There was some talk about limiting top gear to 4th or 5th to keep RPMs up over 2000 while driving at less than freeway speeds. The tech did admit that the stationary regen runs at 2500RPM, so this idea has merit to keep the coolant temp and EGTs high.
8. The tech had never heard of somebody doing a park regen in their driveway by setting the parking brake and keeping the RPMs above 2000RPMs. He said the system has to read that the truck is moving to go into regen... otherwise you would have a huge risk with 1200 degree temps coming out of the exhaust tips while stopped. He said that would melt or ignite things nearby.

There was never a conversation about getting the block heater cord to plug in the truck in these conditions. I did not bring it up and neither did they. I am fortunate to have a heated garage, so the truck has a nice cozy start in the mornings. However, my condition started when it was about -12 degrees for two nights that it sat.

Another funny thing I noticed is that they left the truck running when they pulled it around and I still had to check out with the cashier (it was 4 degrees when I got there around 7:45am and almost 20 degrees when I left at 11:00am). Guess they do not mind idling these trucks.

I have driven around for about a month with this truck and focused on the temps and it was clear that the truck could not get to 200 degrees at all. It seems to me that 170 should be enough to handle regen duties, but this truck will not get to 170 sitting still unless you hold the throttle down. Therefore, it has to move to regen and when the truck is moving, the grill cover will definitely help the motor get up to temp quicker and stay higher once it gets there.

My big test will be later today when I get the truck over 60% soot level. Will the regen happen automatically/passively? If so, yes, great! Everything is working according to plan. Or will the Edge be able to now do the 'mobile regen' when I trigger it? I will definitely be triggering it if it gets to 81% and: I see nothing on the EVIC, the temps do not go up on the EGTs, and/or the soot level does not begin to drop automatically.

Final note, I do not have the grill cover yet. It had to be ordered yesterday and should be in by Friday. Based on my current rate of soot accumulation, I will need to see the truck regen before I get the grill cover installed. It is awesome to have this truck back. You really do appreciate the power and smoothness of this truck when everything is working properly!

 

[Milvetmac]

Follow up message.

I changed the fuel filter. No change to my situation. Filter looked relatively great for ~10,000 miles in 8 weeks.

Now I am wondering if it might be the AAT (ambient air temperature sensor). My AAT through the Edge CTS2 is saying ~70 degrees when my garage is about 50 degrees, engine cold. Then it went up to 107 while I was out driving the truck after the fuel filter change last night. I have no problems with my EVIC outside air temp or my HVAC.

This cannot be the temp sensor in the driver side mirror, right?

Where is the ambient air temperature sensor for the PCM? NOT the intake manifold sensor or the intake sensor, either. The Edge gives me those temps and they are fine... but my thinking is that the discrepancy between the three of them is too great. Maybe that is causing the derated / limp mode?

Description from the Edge CTS2 monitor for AAT PID:
View attachment 1932

It is about 8-10 degrees outside -- EVIC is correct:

View attachment 1933



AAT says 107 degrees F, yet IMAT is 18 and IAT is 15 and the EGTs all seem nominal:
View attachment 1934

I don’t think this is your issue but if you’re like me you want as much info as possible regardless of how relevant it is so you can narrow down frustration... I had an issue for almost a month with egt, and absurd high soot levels, wouldnt regen, “dealer only” nonsense. To make a long story short the dealer didn’t secure the intake “silencer” tube properly and it was slowly leaking until it popped completely off and had engine shit down on the freeway one day with the infamous throttle code, turbo under boost, etc-among 17 plus other strange codes. I used a matco Maximus 2.0 scanner, secured intake and put a kn air filter in it after spraying the map sensor off real quick and it came back to life, hard reset the computer (it will hold a charge in the vehicle even woth the battery disconnected for some reason, I’ve had it disco’d for almost 2 full days and it didn’t clear codes. Had to alligator clip the positive/ negative terminals together to get it to completely drain) and forced a regen after. Didn’t have a problem for a couple weeks until the kn oil gummed up. A corporate tech told me to never ever use an oiled filter in the ED, they do not like them! Been running an afe pro dry s since and had zero issues woth manual and automatic regen/turbo/misc codes...

 

[TC Diesel]

Deward, I have run several Stationary De-sooting W/O code. Certified Ecodiesel Tech he may be, But their is also a certification rating for changing wheels on Dumpers.

Cooling temps have little to NO effect on Cylinder temps, The ED has 2 Exchanger 1 Lube and 1 Trans, 2 Coolers, 1 Radiator and 1 Auxiliary Trans cooler these were on My 2015. The WF will have little to NO effect on Temps above 0, it with shorten the warming in -0 temps

The WF is a recall free item 2014-16, You were duped .

 

[TC Diesel]

I LMBO when I see WF on trucks above 25F, they are a future customer for someone.

 

[Crosbo]

Dpf clogged but truck hasn't done a re-gen in the 60000kms that I've owned it. Is this normal? Shouldn't there have been re-gen cycles that cleaned dpf?

 

[Milvetmac]

Dpf clogged but truck hasn't done a re-gen in the 60000kms that I've owned it. Is this normal? Shouldn't there have been re-gen cycles that cleaned dpf?

In my experience with the truck (115k miles) i have had timeframes where the truck will regen twice a week as well as other times where i went almost 3 months without a regen. i cant say that i have seen any consistency with the regen process or when it does it. maybe TC diesel can chime in if he knows any more details but you could always get the banks idash gauge and do a force regen before your oil changes? (thats what i have been doing)

 

[TC Diesel]

Active Regens are not equal to Stationary De-sooting, Yes they help AR, the best is SD and only two tools I know of are capable of SD, WITech-ALFA.

 

[Milvetmac]

Active Regens are not equal to Stationary De-sooting, Yes they help AR, the best is SD and only two tools I know of are capable of SD, WITech-ALFA.

The idash, snapon zues and the matco Maximus also supports stationary regen...

 

[bill-e]

Dpf clogged but truck hasn't done a re-gen in the 60000kms that I've owned it. Is this normal? Shouldn't there have been re-gen cycles that cleaned dpf?

Your truck has been doing passive (When the DPF is at or above 600°f) and active regens (at around 65% full) all along. The operator is only notified of regen when it is triggered at 80% and at FULL. If you regularly get your truck up to operating temp for sustained periods of time you may go through your entire ownership period never seeing either the 80% or FULL EVIC warnings. Even if you do a lot of short trips the 80% warning happens very infrequently.

 

[TC Diesel]

Milvetmac, Stationary De-soot is entirely difference event than Active/Stationary Regen.

 

[carlhenry]

full delete with a good tune is the only way 2 fix the eco diesel!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ecopete]

Milvetmac, Stationary De-soot is entirely difference event than Active/Stationary Regen.

You have me wondering how the stationary de-soot is so different? Does it get hotter than a regen?

 

[Milvetmac]

You have me wondering how the stationary de-soot is so different? Does it get hotter than a regen?

I was curious of the same thing, all I can find from Chrysler is that it is only able to be done for one; if the dpf system is so clogged that it’s the only way to clear the system. The procedure can be done by a scan tool other than a witec vs. 9+ but no further info in which tools are actually compatible other than what I’ve found on other forums people have supposedly used alpha obd to successfully initiate the desoot. And two it runs almost 2 hours at higher temps to blow the crap out to a limit of 3 gallons of fuel. (That’s my laymen interpretation of the topic)

 

[Tremper126]

I can stationary regen my work truck if I want to sit in the ac during the summer to kill time, ( Isuzu npr) with the push of a button. Takes about half an hour and you cannot move truck at all. I used alfaobd to stationary my ram once around 60% load, took about 20 minutes to clear it down to below 10%

 

[Milvetmac]

@TC Diesel has the knowledge, desoot and regen are not the same thing @Tremper126

 

[TC Diesel]

Milvetmac is correct Regen has limits, Desoot can last for 40 Minutes and at 2500RPMs, and since its stationary it stay at high temps.