EPA holding 2017 Diesels hostage

[bobcat67]

Everyone except GM which already had a relatively large displacement engine to begin with bumped up their displacement to meet coming and current emissions standards cummins went from 5.9 to 6.7, powerstroke went from 6.0 to 6.4 to 6.7. I remember when GM was designing a diesel for the 1/2 tons it was 4.5L which is substantially larger than the 3.0 VM motor. Nissan seemed to have skirted the issue by building a heavy half ton. I'm sure if Ford chooses to use a 3.0 in their 1/2 ton the issues will be addressed via fuel injection and turbocharging. I personally wouldn't mind if they leave the power alone on the 3.0 VM and it drank 2x as much DEF to meet emissions, however 200hp or less and lackluster performance and the truck is down the road. I don't need another 3/4-1ton pickup, but I would get another one of those before they neuter my baby dodge.

 

[TC Diesel]

You can only does the NOx via Urea so much Adding to much creates other problems. Deposits , back pressure, poor conversion, etc.

 

[bobcat67]

You can only does the NOx via Urea so much Adding to much creates other problems. Deposits , back pressure, poor conversion, etc.

I figured as much, probably need a much larger catalyst to accomplish this via urea

 

[dbr2]

Need to ask yourself, why does this engine meet standards around the world, but not in the USA?? Maybe there is more to this. I am a skeptic with this EPA leadership, no faith in their reasons. But, GM helped develop this engine for their European CTS Cadillac and when GM went into financial despair, they dropped the Project. Ram picked it up when they had access, most development cost had already been born by GM, a great financial move for RAM. Take a look at the development of this engine, it is very high tech and kicking the daylights out of the GM's little truck- little diesel. The engine's bottom end is built with a bed plate-6 bolt main equivalent, CGI block, strong as hell, a fuel delivery system that can send 8 pulses per combustion vs. the 5 pulse with the piezo system (less noisy-better fuel economy), aluminum heads with dual cam, 24 valve drive train, Oil squirted under each piston for cooling, variable vane Turbo with ceramic ball bearings- water cooled and packaged in a small 60 degree V. Light weight and efficient.

The Questions that need to be asked. What changed in the Last 8 years that all of Europe and the civilized world uses this engine and it meets the emission standards with less crap on the engine, sorry emission contols, of said countries. Of Course there are some countries who have no standards. But, Europe is about as strict as any country.

So, the entire planet with the exception of the USA are OKAY with this engine, WHY? It's been in production for quite a while preceding the Ram entry by a decade or better.

THE EPA REG's: somewhere common sense for the environment, Technology at it's very best and realistic Ideology (green movement-tree hugger's) need to meet on common ground for the American offering. Europe is strict, very strict on emissions and yet they are happy with the emission standards. You would think Europe with much higher people density and much smaller countries would have a higher demand for better emissions, they do and they are reasonable ones.

So, Why only the USA? There is no such thing as coincidence in politics when it comes to the EPA. Part of it is Cetane levels and part of it is just unrealistic use of emission levels vs emission output. let me explain, low levels of emissions but use more fuel to get there which is actually a higher amount of emission release into the atmosphere. This is where ideology and commonsense need to meet.

I for one enjoy my full size truck, Not the small cab GM, I have the 6' rambox and enjoy the ability to put my slide in camper on my truck and haul a large boat behind it. Yes, I know the issue with payload, I have a camper that weighs in at about 2200-2400Lbs depending on stuff loaded, depending on where I go.

Oh, side note: the Rambox makes it very tight to load a camper, it is barely over 49" wide in the box and the camper is 48" wide, I removed part of the rail system that extended into box and removed and replaced the fixed tie downs with removable tie downs. I did not think it thru when I saw this truck on the lot, with everything I wanted with the exception of the rambox and the 4 corner air suspension. but, it had everything else I wanted, in the color and interior color and length of box. I really did not thing thru the Rambox and my camper. Even my BakFlip cover I have to remove the mounting system, not hard, or long, just a pain, loose 12 bolts and slide out, I marked where they sit so not to hard to slide back in and snug down again. The good news is that the camper sit just high enough over the bed sides that I can still open and use my Rambox storage for most items that are smaller than about 6 inches in height. If it is larger it will stay in the box until I can open the cover completely. so, far Oil containers, Additive containers, my truck torque tie down system,. etc No problems just snug.

Since I have a 6' box versus the 5' box it lets my camper center of gravity sit just forward of the rear axle about 6"-8", the very reason I bought the longer 6'4" box. The weight is not a direct correlation to how much sits on the rear axle. The load is distributed over the front and back axle. The truck handles it well, even with the (5,500lbs) 23' boat in tow with a tongue weight of 240lbs. I have a very heavy boat. Now, with that said, you need to drive with restraint, you do not try to go down the highway at 75 or higher just because that is the current speed limit. There is no crime in slowing to 65-70 depending on conditions, hills, temperatures, altitude, traffic, wind, etc. Watch your engine temps, Oil, engine, tranny and EGR's. Yes, you need to by a OBDII device-not programmer like the Banks iDash Monitor, to read EGR temps and true oil pressure or you can add a pyrometer, I found that too much work when you can pull several temps on the engine including a downstream turbo temp. Drive responsible, not like you stole it.

I use a diesel additive to help boost the Cetane levels and I actually use less DEF fluid. I have added 4-2.5 Gallon container of DEF in 21,730 miles, I have owned this truck from new at 15 miles on odometer. I am at half a tank of DEF now, so about 12-13 gallons in all as I started with a 3/4 tank of DEF. I have tracked every fuel up since I bought the truck, I mean every fill up, by mileage, gallons delivered and cost.

Again, a position to say either the USA is correct and the rest of the world is wrong??? OR I tend to lean to USA is likely not on point with the Reg's they are trying to inforce.
These are my personal views, I do not intend to change anybody's views, I thought I would through in some information for a good debate, seems like a great exchange of ideas going on.

 

[Joe Lee]

dbr2,

What is your opinion on the failure rate of the engines in the Rams?

 

[TC Diesel]

Thinking that Europe standards are correct is questionable, I fine Must products over engineered and under develop. the Standard of manufacturing and production is questionable at best, that's not saying everything, but if you work on overseas engines you will find the tolerances and spec's that are acceptable in Europe would fail here.

Example, a Water pump on the Mercedes is 4-6hrs labor and $600-$800 , The 6.7 Cummins $200.00 and 20 minutes labor, and I've replace many Mercedes pumps and it looks to be about the same life span.

The 3.0 Failure rate on rotating mass is 10 times more likely (Minimum rate or minimum acceptably ) than any diesel produces in N/A. It looks like the rest of the issues are par.

 

[dbr2]

Thinking that Europe standards are correct is questionable, I fine Must products over engineered and under develop. the Standard of manufacturing and production is questionable at best, that's not saying everything, but if you work on overseas engines you will find the tolerances and spec's that are acceptable in Europe would fail here.

Example, a Water pump on the Mercedes is 4-6hrs labor and $600-$800 , The 6.7 Cummins $200.00 and 20 minutes labor, and I've replace many Mercedes pumps and it looks to be about the same life span.

The 3.0 Failure rate on rotating mass is 10 times more likely (Minimum rate or minimum acceptably ) than any diesel produces in N/A. It looks like the rest of the issues are par.

I do not think that saying the failure rate is 10x more likely true to fact. At the last posting of failures and it was a Canadian post of stat. I read, it showed it was 1 in 1000 and that was almost the same failure rate of most other diesels. Remember that failure rate does not mean a totally bricked engine. some or just minor repairs but causes down time to the customer.
I have never seen a shop charge 20 minutes in cost, they go by the book on the time need to do repair. and the minimum is an hour, so yes may be quicker to replace the cummings water pump. Possibly so. I am a cummings person, I wish they took the small BT4 in line and used it as it is already proven and is the exact same as the 6 cylinder missing 2 cylinders, I believe it is north of a 4L in size now. This engine is used in a lot of different deployed uses. Gen units, pump units, some deliver trucks, machinery, etc.

Let's be real clear on the GM dropping their project for the VM 3.0L diesel due to collapse of company and the bailout. But, with that said Dodge Ram at the time was also working on the Cummings project for their 1500 when again collapse and despair of the auto industry, they stopped the small cummings project. So, the industry comes back and Ram is owned by FCA and of course they used the VM 3.0L for a lot of reasons, one cost, it was almost completely developed, second they wanted to sell the engine with their suppliers, not an American engine.
Now along comes Nissan and snaps up the rest of the development of the cummings engine which dodge ram had jointly funded with cummings. Nissan was smart for taking the cummings offering, FCA RAM used their own suppliers offerings, and GM used an in house Duramax hybrid offering of there own.

GM did not drop VM as bad engine, Ram did not drop cummings, both car companies where in financial collapse and abandoned the projects. They were developing and when they were viable companies again everybody used what was financial beneficial to them.

Look into the development of the VM go to their sight and read it and you will certainly find it was a GM CTS Cadillac development, the same with cummings go to the articles of them developing the small block cummings and you will see directly from cummings it started with Dodge Ram, but now it is a Nissan offering.

I would certainly not down play the specs. of a European engine and its tolerances. I have had crews around the world and we used many different types of engines, even a lot of air cooled Deutz diesels and some Nissan diesels. I have read a lot of specs when purchasing and as far as specs go, they do not have different specs for machining and tolerance for Europe vs the US, that is just factually not true. There may be variation in compression, emission equipment, but not rotating mass, turbo's specs, cylinder and ring tolerance. You will find that cummings has licensed a few Chinese's company to produce and distribute their commercial use engines for a lot of Asia, Chongqing Machinery & Electric Co., Ltd and DongFeng or just a couple. But they are built to Cummings specs. and must meet their specs or lose the contract. They all ran very well, very little smoke when put under load, usually a small amount as the RPM's dropped as they would fuel heavier to recover from a immediate heavy load request. these were commercial use. There are so many different camps on diesel and diesel failures of all brands. From Turbo's going down, oil coolers leaking, spun bearings, water pumps, injector pumps and on and on and on.

The actual failure rate was about 1 in 1000 and the industry they used to show it against, remember that was the entire industry not any particular make the entire industry should .85 in 1000. So, yes it is a higher failure rate than the industry and you can say it is a 17% higher failure rate.
1-.85=.15/.85=.176 or 17.6% sound high.
Really guys 1 in 1000 are almost one (.85) in 1000. at the end of the day 100 units vs 85 units in every 100,000 units. Now to go directly to the small cummings, I have no idea, too new, but the ford powerstroke has had several years with really bad problems and over came them, even their transmission where devastating in the mid 2000's. a 10 cent seal on the tranny going out, but you would have to lift the truck cab off of the frame to repair, out of service for 1-3 weeks depending on you dealer.
So, we can sit here and have a real conversation on actual catastrophic engine failures of ecodiesel and in reality there really is no other engine that competes with it in size and power with any history. so what do you compare it too? The duramax, powerstroke, cummings, it is just not the same type of diesel or the same type of power plant.
Now with all of that said, we know that 3/4 or 1 ton's and larger, do not have to show fuel economy and they actually have a different environmental impact. Remember the cummings is 6.7 liter and has 370-385 hp and 800-900 ft lbs torque depending on which offering and tune. The ecodiesel has 240Hp 420 ft. lbs torque produces 80 hp per liter and only 104 ft lbs torque per liter. in comparison the cummings 6.7 produces 57.5 Hp per liter a little low in comparison to the ecodiesel but it supplies 134 ft. lbs of torque per liter, now that is raw power, size has its advantages and rotating mass helps. You can tune for higher HP and lower Torque or the reverse or somewhere in the middle. The 3.0L is tuned to deliver more hp and less torque as you need hp to help get the truck out of it's own way, but still has enough torque to perform well under load for its size. Still a little turbo lag, the variable vane turbo does its best on that front but maybe a slightly larger turbo with 2 stage variable could deliver better response and more torque, but it is also about cost. I wish they would come out with variation of the engine you could choose.
I have no way to answer the concerns about the failures of the ecodiesel, but this 3.0L engine failure rate is only out of the norm by a little in comparison to the industry and only 2 years of USA market experience vs others with Decades of experience. Remember the only people we hear from on these forums are the people who are looking for answers on their failed or failing engine. You have to understand the concerns and complaint are exacerbated just by the sheer number of negative failure complaints on the forums vs. the real world. What about the other 99,900 units that are doing just fine. We do not hear the good stuff at the same rate as bad stuff resonates much deeper.
As my dad told me, 1000 Ata-boys(pats on the back) are wiped out by one awe sh*t. Look thru all ecodiesel forums and the motor failures reports seem excessive and in reality it is not. Bad stuff always dominates in these forums as people are looking for answers, I understand. As a forum do we really get proportionate comments of how well the trucks or doing, not even close.
Mine for all intensive purposes is doing very well, now that could change tomorrow and I could be one of those disproportionate negative comments/complaints.

I would be interested if anybody can find that old report or if there is a new report on the ecodiesel, the only study I saw came out of Canada, but it used the North American sales and repair figures, so US and Canada were combined in the study or I should say report, it really was not a study it was an actual report produced either by the industry or by a Canadian agency. It's been a year since I read that report.
Once again I have over run my comments. I thank everybody for their patients.

 

[dbr2]

dbr2,

What is your opinion on the failure rate of the engines in the Rams?

Joe, answered it in the next comments below, rather long, it is my views only, from my research only. so what ever that is worth.

 

[Joe Lee]

Joe, answered it in the next comments below, rather long, it is my views only, from my research only. so what ever that is worth.

Thank you for the detailed info!

 

[TC Diesel]

Another internet myth, that most owners report failures, No most owners will never join forums. I have received calls form owners that never would comment.

Not 1 2017 has been produced and Ram Trucks has the option available it look like FCA is still the lead promoter of denial.

Maybe if FCA keeps that dead horse still running on the Internet and dealer propaganda, 1 or 2 owners will believe it. I don't plan on being 1 of the 2.




ganda

 

[bobcat67]

Another internet myth, that most owners report failures, No most owners will never join forums. I have received calls form owners that never would comment.

Not 1 2017 has been produced and Ram Trucks has the option available it look like FCA is still the lead promoter of denial.

Maybe if FCA keeps that dead horse still running on the Internet and dealer propaganda, 1 or 2 owners will believe it. I don't plan on being 1 of the 2.




View attachment 1156ganda

I don't know if it's dead, but this horse is getting a beating. I hope the best for the platform. I really like mine. That being said I'll get rid of it in a heartbeat if buy backs end up being the result. By the time ground is covered and paperwork figured out the new F-150's will be available.

 

[TC Diesel]

Many Gm/Ford owners jumped to the ED. I really like mine also, so I will hang in short of legal surrender. deep in My heart I wish the ED could have been a hero, and I'm kinda PO at FCA for all the controversy that was completely avoidable.

 

[Joe Lee]

Many Gm/Ford owners jumped to the ED. I really like mine also, so I will hang in short of legal surrender. deep in My heart I wish the ED could have been a hero, and I'm kinda PO at FCA for all the controversy that was completely avoidable.

TC, do you still have an ED? I'm thought I read that you got out.

 

[TC Diesel]

I still have it, My wife says its the other women, We been married 17 Years, and when She came home 1 night Back in July 15 and I lift the cab and had the engine in a stand , She said you never done that before, the thing you usually take out is still in the truck (Trans) ,I found 2 undersized bearings, I waited year before I disclosed that at the 1500diesel.com and TOP call Me a liar, that's a fighting word as far as I'm concerned told him to F himself , I got 3-day well earned vacation, I started deleting post at that point but ran out of time, me and 97Hmcs heated things up again when I commented that all My so-called speculation became true it was just More denial, Then I ask to have all My postings deleted in the open forum , 97 ask if I didn't want to participate any more ,All I ask was to have My postings deleted, 97 banned me and deleted all My posting, Crash step in but it was to late 97 had already did the damage...

 

[TC Diesel]

A lot of good members at that forum and Blue,Crash and Verndiesel all were Fair but 97 and I different Standards. I'm more like a guy in bottle break glass in case of war only, 97 well more like fox hole material with ban buttons.

 

[Joe Lee]

So, do you have it back together and in service?

If so, I'm guessing you are going to ride it out and see if a buy back comes?

 

[bobcat67]

TC Diesel owns a diesel shop, I'm sure when he tore apart the engine it was out of shear curiosity, probably had it back together in a few hours or days depending on how big of a priority it was

 

[dbr2]

Good Morning to al,
I am thinking no buy back, I am thinking unless this is truly a violation, which I am inclined to think it is not. The failure rate is still the failure rate, it is not in excess fallout or catastrophic numbers. It was a very proven engine, then with some new USA emission equipment stuck on it to try to reach some really ideological numbers from our EPA (Green directed folks) may have caused the early deployment of units to have some slightly higher failure rates considering the EGR requirement that have to use.
I stand by facts, not conjecture, Do you see any action by any governmental agency, a class action by any group of people on the ED diesel engine. NO, there is no extraneous evidence to produce any action, Again not even from the Government, no recall notice on the engine or any part of the engine. Factual evidence is usually the basis to be used. I had a recall for a rear driver side axle that may or may not have been heat treated correctly. FCA informed me, replaced it, in and out same day.

I highly disagree with TC about folks and the forums, why do people join most forums, common interest and knowledge, why are all of you hear on this forum having this very discussion. I have read comments on serval of these forums I monitor over the last couple of years and again the amount of people having troubles on the forums are high. Just look at the forum populations and how many complaints vs. subscribers? Lets just say it does not reflect actual failure rates. When I owned my last ford, which I have always owned fords for over 39 years and I have owned many, it took a lot for me to change from my powerstroke to a smaller 1/2 ton ford ecoboost and then to the RAM 1500(ecodiesel) because I missed my diesel engine. I have never owned a dodge product, I felt like I cheated my ford family. Those same ford forums over the years had some of the same hype as we are seeing in the Ecodiesel forums. I have yet to see ford taken down for their past problems and there where many over the years.

I will again defer to the facts, I would suggest everybody go read the alleged violation and the response from FCA and to quote the president "Hog Wash". I think this is one of those times and over the last decade there have been many, That the EPA has overstepped on facts. The software violation I believe to be as I quote "Hog Wash".

Now, On Monday, lawyers representing owners of older 2500 and 3500 Dodge Ram trucks filed a class-action lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Detroit, asserting the companies "conspired to knowingly deceive consumers and regulators of illegally high levels of diesel emissions in their vehicles." Hum, now Cummings is under ATTACK for 2007-2012 and the EPA, yes the EPA has asked for a total recall of the 2013-2015 2500 and 3500 trucks.

Again, I do not believe in coincidence, so the American Gold standard is now under attack from the EPA, or is it just the FCA? Really have no ideas of which motive, but again alleging high emission but no failures, just high emissions. Common sense and a lot of surveys say that the 2500 and 3500 Cummings owners love their trucks and that is pretty much across the spectrum. I am trying to understand when all of these truck owners got together and decided a class action suit against their truck emissions. A recall for a catalytic converter or emission component that has gone bad I understand, EMISSIONS? Really, you have to ask yourself the last time a Cummings owner on any forum or public display said they where mad their truck is out of compliance for emissions. Well, maybe now that there may be money involved. Just saying?

Anybody read any complaints of a Cummings owner upset about his/her emissions on their Cummings engine or complaints on a forum?

Even VW for their violation, and let's be clear, it was a deceitful violation, how many owners complained they hated their cars because it did not meet the emission levels that the EPA had mandate, None that I am aware of, and I am speaking prior to the violation. Any VW owners standing up and yelling that they hated their car for the higher then normal emissions? They had no idea and most of the testing equipment could not detect it because of the software, it was a geek that picked it out of the code. I believe VW should be on public display, I do however think the fine was disproportionate to the violation. The consumer gets a shot at cash or vehicle updates, pretty sweet deal for not even knowing you had a problem. But, the obscene amount of money going to our government that will not be used to repair or fix anything to do with these emission violation is just NUTS.

If you go out and read about the settlement you will see in one of those complaints and responses that the detectable level of emissions where almost not measurable. They stated the environmental impact was not detectable. No immediate threat to life or health, not like the airbags killing people. As, I said it was disproportionate to the violation when you look at another company with actual deaths. All the airbags that have not yet replaced, the actual potential for real bodily harm and/or death still exist.

But, VW was deceitful in their actions, that is unacceptable, and the consumer should be protected, not the coffers of the EPA. VW did put in place a settlement and a great settlement to any owner, quite a lucrative settle and the owner has control of the choice of settlement. That I totally agree with, even knowing that the owner had no idea of the violation and loved their VW's.

I have read and researched all the good and the bad about the EcoDiesel engine. I still made a personal choice to purchase the truck I have today and I have to tell you after being a hard core Ford owner, I love my 1500 Ecodiesel and not just the engine. The truck drives great, the fit and finish in my unit is beautiful, I love my truck. BUT! If ford delivers in 2018 a diesel F150, I may go back to ford. I will however sit out the first year or two as I did with the Ecodiesel and follow the production and life cycle of these units and I will make the same informed decision to purchase or not. The one thing I will say about my Laramie, I really do love my interior over my 2012 Ecoboost Lariat I owned.

Well, it looks like the EPA has now gone after the Gold standard, Humm? or is it just a foreign owned FCA company?
Do your own research, draw your own opinions, but do the research, use the facts as we know them and not just emotions or following somebodies comments, as we all feel bad for anybody losing a power unit to a catastrophic failure.

Later:

 

[TC Diesel]

I just don't see any other legal way for FCA, regardless of how some feel the law the law....and that's going to be the reality of the accusations if the Justice dept sides with the EPA.

dbr2 ,Chris and I at times spend 8000+ minutes Per month on the phone, verbal communication is still by far the best and most used from exchange.

I have lost count on the time spent on the phone correcting wrongful info found on the web social network.

Button line pick up the phone and fine someone who is an experts ,pay them fairly and you will benefit

Use the social network as a touchtone only, Someone owning one truck with very limited resources and background should be tips only

I think you will find 1000s of post mentioning TC Diesel and 99% of those members will tell anyone to call TC .

I don't see any Political cause in this complaint. https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa-notifies-fiat-chrysler-clean-air-act-violations

FCA reminds Me of NWA Northwest airlines, it was nicely trimmed body with this ugly looking corporate head.

The body of FCA makes some darn good products.

All the controversy over poor decisions made by Corp FCA is causing the body to suffer.

 

[dbr2]

I agree with TC on many area's, I do have reserved questions about the EPA, actions speak louder than words. The EPA has been struck down quite often lately in the courts. Just saying! I hold them in the same regard as the IRS, not in very high esteem. Yes, I do see they have a possible Green agenda to fulfill and now Cummings? Really!
You have to question the timing of everything today and especially the EPA's timing. Trust is earned not demanded, they have lost the trust of not just myself, but the American people in general. We need to hold them accountable also.
TC is correct, the Law is our line of defense. And if the FCA had a true hidden agenda like VW, I will be the first to admit I am wrong and move forward to an appropriate settlement, which means make people whole, not like they hit a lottery. They should be held to make everybody whole. And, yes I spend many hours on the phone, I do investigate companies as part of what I do. I have analysis and attorney at my disposal that are way smarter then me. I use their research on the insights to companies financial health and impending regulations or suits. It all matters.